S04E03 — The Sheep Detectives
SPOILER ALERT: This episode and transcript below contains major spoilers for The Sheep Detectives.
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Featuring hosts Timothy Haynes, Donna Haynes, Rebekah Edwards, and T. Josiah Haynes.
This week, baby listeners, we’re comparing Leonie Swann’s Three Bags Full with The Sheep Detectives, two stories that technically begin the same way—George is dead and his sheep decide to investigate—and then promptly wander into completely different meadows. The Shee p DetectivesWe’re talking Mopple vs. Maple, the book’s approximately seventeen thousand sheep, a Guinness-drinking alcoholic ram, the big invisible lamb-beaver made of bread, and why a murder mystery probably shouldn’t end with, “Surprise! Nobody murdered him.”
And for once, there is basically no family argument over the final verdict.
Which honestly feels suspicious.
Final Verdicts
If you haven’t listened to the episode yet, we recommend waiting to read our verdicts. (But you’re probably grown, so do what you want!)
The book gives us a flock of confused sheep slowly investigating George’s death while wandering through approximately 900 sheep-related plot cul-de-sacs. The movie says, “Okay, but what if we actually solved a murder?”—then adds a real killer, a better mystery, some devastating thoughts about grief, and enough crying to require 14 napkins.
Donna: The film was better.
– Book Score: 4.5/10
– Film Score: /910
Rebekah: The film was better.
– Book Score: 6/10
– Film Score: 7.5/10
Josiah: The film was better.
– Book Score: 6.5/10
– Film Score 9/10
Tim: The book was better.
– Book Score: 6/10
– Film Score 8/10
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Full Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Rebekah: Baa, baa, black sheep, have you any wool?
[00:00:05] Donna: Yes, sir, yes, sir, three bags full.
[00:00:10] Tim: One for the master, one for the dame.
[00:00:14] Donna: One for the shepherd man who died by the spade.
[00:00:23] Or did he?
[00:00:43] Rebekah: evening, family. Good evening. We are the Book is Better podcast. Woo-hoo. And today we are going to spoil, uh, The Sheep Detectives. Sheep Detectives. Which is a 2026 film based on a movie, or based on a book called Three Bags Full by Leonie Swann, uh, translated into the English. It is Leonie, not Lenny. Mm. I don’t know if you caught that.
[00:01:08] Leonie,
[00:01:09] Josiah: okay.
[00:01:10] Rebekah: Um, and as an important point of order, I would like to say I have a tattoo. I got a tattoo.
[00:01:16] Josiah: Whoa. Is that the deadly hollows? It’s
[00:01:18] Rebekah: irrelevant to the podcast, but it’s relevant to me. It’s relevant. You have a, you have
[00:01:21] Josiah: a bowling shirt. It’s very,
[00:01:22] Donna: it’s incredibly
[00:01:22] Rebekah: relevant. It’s Easter week.
[00:01:25] Donna: Wow.
[00:01:27] Josiah: It’s about the shepherd.
[00:01:27] That’s a good thing to remember.
[00:01:28] Rebekah: Yes, it’s about the good shepherd. Mm-hmm. So that is why I got it right before this podcast episode, actually.
[00:01:34] Josiah: That is so relevant.
[00:01:36] Rebekah: That’s untrue. I lied. That- That was a lie. I’m sorry, Jesus. Oh. Yeah. Well, uh, regardless, today we are gonna be spoiling, uh, Three Bags Full and The Sheep Detectives.
[00:01:48] Uh, quite different works of fiction, if I do say so myself. Uh, content warning-wise, if you turned this episode on because you saw the film and thought, “Oh, what a sweet children’s story. What a, what a nice- Mm … family-friendly tale,” uh, the book goes some different directions with things. So nothing particularly wild, uh- The movie
[00:02:11] in terms of sexual content or violence, but there are definitely some, uh, some deeper things that it gets into. Yeah.
[00:02:18] Josiah: There’s, like, one F word randomly. Mm.
[00:02:21] Tim: It might be a little lengthy, but here we go. Okay. A herd of sheep raised for wool only by their shepherd find their shepherd, George, dead by his caravan/home.
[00:02:36] Aw. Having decided to solve- Mm … their beloved George’s murder, the sheep investigate the suspects of the small town down the mountain from their meadow.
[00:02:47] Donna: And that, my friends- Is the end of the story That’s about- That’s the same. Yeah … is the whole of what is agreeing from book to film.
[00:02:58] Rebekah: Okay, so before we go into all that, what did we like that’s the same- Hmm
[00:03:02] from book to film? I would like to just say I… We’ll get into it. It, it lost its, uh, charm a little bit, but the sheep being so earnest in their pursuit- Mm-hmm … of solving George’s murder, and yet so very adorably wrong, I actually did like that. Yeah. Hmm. It got old by the end, but I thought- Yeah … it was very cute.
[00:03:28] Donna: Are you talking about- Yeah … in the, in the novel?
[00:03:31] Rebekah: In both. In both? Like, yeah, in the novel, I, I was, like, over it by the end.
[00:03:35] Donna: Yeah.
[00:03:36] Rebekah: In, in the movie, I don’t think it was annoying because the movie was only so long, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:42] Tim: What I liked about the adaptation that was not different, I liked the fact that the sheep were the investigators, and because they had heard about, you know, that they had, had the mysteries read to them, that they thought they could solve it, and I thought that’s- Hmm.
[00:03:59] Donna: Yeah …
[00:03:59] Tim: that’s the same kinda thing, and that was fun.
[00:04:01] Donna: I like the fact that the movie kept George being a little saucy. Like, the, the book- Saucy … like, I, I, I wondered, because, you know, he had… He loved the sheep and was completely, you know, compassionate to them and kind to them, but the people in the town he had issues with, so he wasn’t just kind of this pushover guy, and I liked that because in the book it was…
[00:04:31] it’s portrayed him similarly. He, he wasn’t just friendly with everybody. Um-
[00:04:38] Rebekah: Yeah …
[00:04:38] Donna: he had issues and, you know, uh, give or give… Take that for what it was, but I like the fact that they kept him like that- For one, it beefed up the murder mystery part that so many… You know, they c- they all had some motive going on that you could easily derive or whatever, but-
[00:05:01] Josiah: What I liked about this adaptation that was taken from the book, probably my favorite part of the book was the beginning, the first chapter where you’re just getting to know the sheep and the tone of the story and everything.
[00:05:15] Mm-hmm. What I got, and this is a little, maybe this is pretentious, but what I enjoyed about it was that it was like the death of George w- was-
[00:05:31] Rebekah: I’m so ready
[00:05:32] Josiah: for this … Prometheus giving the humans fire in Greek mythology. I felt like-
[00:05:39] Rebekah: Actually, yeah …
[00:05:40] Josiah: George’s death gave the sheep- George gave them- Honestly, to me, it felt like George’s death- Yeah
[00:05:46] gave the sheep sentience. The fact that we jump into their heads, uh, right after- Mm-hmm … he’s dead, as they’re discovering him- Mm-hmm … it made me think that- Yeah … they’ve not really, they don’t, they don’t realize that they just gained a new level of sentience. But it f- makes me think that the sheep just learned how to think, how to talk, how to reason, how to feel, and- Interesting.
[00:06:13] Yep … that, that was an interesting, uh
[00:06:18] Tim: I like that …
[00:06:19] Josiah: an interesting theme for me to explore- Yeah … that, uh, these are like young humans who are just learning the difference between good and evil. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, what does it mean to take responsibility? What does it mean to mourn? All these very human things that children don’t really understand, or like babies don’t understand.
[00:06:44] And I f- I felt like it was kind of- Yeah … carried into the film. It was actually a little more muddled in the film to me- Mm-hmm … ’cause you saw the sheep sentient, uh, while George was still alive, which we’ll get into later. Yeah. But I, I liked that the sheep were young humans gaining the ability to think and reason, and I think it might have even been a little stronger in the book.
[00:07:08] Donna: Mm.
[00:07:10] Rebekah: I think that’s a really interesting point, and a good point. I did not know what you were going to say. But I think I had the same kind of… I didn’t have any words to put to it. But I think I actually may have had a similar revelation as I began the book. Mm-hmm. It felt like his death was the catalyst for their sentien- sentience is- Mm-hmm
[00:07:30] a perfect way- Yeah … that you said it, so. All right. Let’s talk changes. Yes. And we’re gonna start with what is the least major, well, sort of, uh, the like setting a-
[00:07:41] Donna: Yes …
[00:07:42] Rebekah: the setting and placement, like the vibe.
[00:07:46] Donna: Yes.
[00:07:47] Tim: So instead of a farm, it’s an urban farm in a fenced off area- Yes … in a big city?
[00:07:52] Rebekah: No, it’s- Nope?
[00:07:53] Okay. No, that, that would’ve been interesting- It’s not … but no.
[00:07:57] Donna: The vibe of the film is significantly changed from the book. Um, the movie is much more family-friendly. Now, it deals with some serious things, which I enjoyed. I liked that because I felt like, one, I wasn’t prepared for them to address some of the topics they got into, but it’s, was still family-friendly.
[00:08:26] I still felt like it gave you an opportunity to walk out of the theater and have conversations with your kids about some things, about just life- Yeah … death, and, and some different things. But they introduced it in a way that, that kids could digest. Um, the book is a much more serious, more adult, it, it deals with topics in a, in a heavier way.
[00:08:56] Um, and without going a whole lot farther into it, uh, I will just say here that the trailer for the movie- Get, I got the vibe from the trailer that it was gonna be this fun kids thing, and the family would enjoy it, and you could laugh together. And so honestly, I, I was so pleased with how they went on and, and handled all this.
[00:09:25] I loved it. I can’t wait to talk about it with you.
[00:09:28] Rebekah: Yeah.
[00:09:29] Josiah: I felt like it was… I, I enjoyed the heaviness of some of it. Mm-hmm. But there were so… Mom and I got to see it together. Oh, nice. There were so many kids in the theater. Mm-hmm. And I feel like how many of those parents knew that they were gonna have to have conversations about- Yeah
[00:09:47] death and souls, and not a lot of religious stuff, but a little bit of religious stuff and, and, uh, there… a lot of death. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing- Mm … but I wonder how many parents were surprised by needing to have those conversations.
[00:10:06] Donna: Yeah.
[00:10:07] Tim: Certainly possible.
[00:10:08] Rebekah: Interesting.
[00:10:09] Donna: Well, from my perspective, you know, I don’t have little kids to talk about it with, so I could love it.
[00:10:17] No stress.
[00:10:18] Rebekah: For you it was fine. I don’t know. I thought… I, maybe I just was sleepy when I was watching it. And so I wasn’t picking up on all the themes. Like, I know what you’re talking about, but I think-
[00:10:30] Josiah: Bryan Cranston
[00:10:32] Rebekah: dies … watching the chief
[00:10:33] Josiah: detectives- He gets mauled to death by wolves. A
[00:10:37] Donna: dog.
[00:10:38] Josiah: By dogs. Dogs.
[00:10:41] Donna: Yeah.
[00:10:41] Rebekah: I mean- … but he, like, sacrificed himself.
[00:10:44] Josiah: Which is beautiful. That’s right. He
[00:10:45] Rebekah: was, like, sweet.
[00:10:46] Josiah: But
[00:10:46] Rebekah: how
[00:10:47] Josiah: many-
[00:10:47] Rebekah: Yeah …
[00:10:47] Josiah: there were, like- But there was no- … four and three-year-old children there. Have they ever experienced- Yeah … death in their life?
[00:10:54] Donna: Yeah. And there was literally no-
[00:10:56] Rebekah: Wait, this coming from the guy- That was quite strong
[00:10:58] who was mad at me because I didn’t like the way that The Wild Robot ended.
[00:11:03] Donna: How did it
[00:11:04] Rebekah: end? I still remember that argument.
[00:11:06] Josiah: Mm-hmm. Who… Does someone
[00:11:08] Rebekah: die?
[00:11:11] it was like about, I don’t know, you and I disagreed heavily because you were like, “Well, kids should have to go and see those things, and parents should be fine with talking about it, and that’s a good thing.” Mm-hmm. And I was like, “Well, at least you should know what you’re getting into,” and I feel like I’m now a- arguing the opposite point somehow.
[00:11:28] Josiah: Yeah.
[00:11:29] Rebekah: But-
[00:11:30] Josiah: That’s… I think that’s
[00:11:31] Rebekah: true … the writer did actually say- It’s fun to be
[00:11:32] Tim: your parent, because sometimes I get whiplash.
[00:11:36] Josiah: Yeah, we have switched sides. Sorry. I’m okay with that. That’s fun to play both sides.
[00:11:40] Rebekah: That’s hilarious.
[00:11:41] Donna: But,
[00:11:42] Rebekah: but
[00:11:42] Josiah: part of the
[00:11:42] Donna: writer
[00:11:43] Josiah: say- But,
[00:11:43] Donna: but- But I think part of your issue- He-
[00:11:46] part of your issue though, Josiah, to me comes from the fact that if, if you only, back to what I said, if you only saw the trailers and you didn’t look into it any farther, which I didn’t, I didn’t read any more about it or whatever, it was gonna be this light-hearted thing. Like, this just whatever- I thought it was gonna be dumb
[00:12:06] these fun, these fun sheep talk. Yeah.
[00:12:07] Josiah: I thought it was gonna be Minions- Yeah … with sheep.
[00:12:09] Donna: Sure.
[00:12:11] Rebekah: Okay. So let’s get into the characters- … of which there are many sheep, but also human beings. Mm.
[00:12:18] Tim: Okay. There are more sheep in the film technically.
[00:12:24] Rebekah: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:24] Tim: Some of the names have been changed, like Miss Maple beca- became Lily for the film.
[00:12:30] Othello in the book became Sebastian, kind of. Mopple the whale, which was always a confusing reference- I never got that … is just Mopple- … in the film.
[00:12:41] Rebekah: He’s fat.
[00:12:43] Tim: And Mel- Melmeth is eliminated. There are six main book sheep versus eight in the film, plus the fainting sheep and the lambs. The lambs. However, from my perspective when I was listening to the audiobook- Impossible
[00:12:59] I felt like there were dozens of
[00:13:03] Donna: sheeps. It was so hard
[00:13:04] Tim: to keep them separate. A dozen sheep that I could not keep track of. Yeah. I just felt like I got lost.
[00:13:09] Josiah: I will say that when people have physical books in front of them, I was worried when the audiobook started and it had a dramatis personae, and it was like, “Here are all the characters- Yes
[00:13:22] in the story.” I’m like, “Oh, no, I don’t have that to flip to the front of the page. I’m gonna get lost.” Yeah. “I know I am.” Mm-hmm. So I can imagine how the front of the book would help with that. Yes. Mm. The physical book. It’s not meant for an audiobook as much as it is- Okay … the physical book.
[00:13:38] Rebekah: I do have the physical book, but I will say there actually aren’t…
[00:13:42] There are more than six sheep. Poor Main Sheep. There are also Maul- Maud, Heather. Uh, did we mention Cloud in the book? Cloud was in both. Cloud’s in both. Uh, Zo- we said Zora. Ramses, Ramses, Ramses. Ramses. Mm-hmm. Lane, Sarah, Cordelia, Maisie- Mm-hmm … Willow- I think- … Delia Fosco Those are from the book.
[00:14:04] Donna: What
[00:14:05] Tim: I’ll look up- Those are from the book.
[00:14:06] Rebekah: Yes.
[00:14:06] Tim: So there are
[00:14:06] Rebekah: dozens in the book. But they’re ver- they’re not main- Right … sheep characters. Right. There were more- But they are named … main character sheep in the film. Yeah. But they are named. Yes. I, I was- I
[00:14:14] Josiah: got
[00:14:14] Donna: mad … because of the, because of how many there were.
[00:14:18] Josiah: When it was going through the, the dramatis personae at the beginning.
[00:14:21] Is it, what is it called in the physical book? When I- The preface, isn’t it? We were going through that, the audiobook was like- Dramatis
[00:14:27] Rebekah: ovus. Sure. Oh, ’cause
[00:14:31] Josiah: it’s not personae, ’cause personae are humans. They’re sheep.
[00:14:33] Rebekah: Yeah.
[00:14:34] Josiah: Okay, Rebecca, read one that’s down near the end of the list, like Cordelia or something.
[00:14:38] What’s her description?
[00:14:40] Donna: Okay
[00:14:43] Rebekah: Cordelia likes unusual words.
[00:14:47] Josiah: Screw that. Don’t make a character-
[00:14:51] Donna: Uh-huh …
[00:14:51] Josiah: whose only distinguishing feature is liking unique words. Yeah. You need… You don’t need to- Mm-hmm … I guess. It was a successful book.
[00:15:01] Rebekah: Okay, my favorite- My favorite is a lamb, unnamed, a lamb who has seen something strange.
[00:15:10] Ah. That’s his whole description. That’s it. That’s the name- But- … and description …
[00:15:14] Donna: okay, and that is why this list I pulled up here was the main ones that-
[00:15:21] Josiah: Yeah …
[00:15:22] Donna: had purpose in the story. But y- because you’re right, it’s like I just kept listening, thinking, “I can’t focus on which of these sheep are doing what.
[00:15:31] I can’t do it.” I also- So I was, that was probably an issue for me, that they changed, specifically changed their names in the movie. Why?
[00:15:40] Josiah: Yeah.
[00:15:40] Rebekah: Okay. Well, first of all, they changed their names. I do not know if this is a, uh… I do not know if this is a bone I must pick with the translator or Leonie Swann, the author.
[00:15:52] Mm. But naming- No. No … one character Mopple- … and one Maple- I believe that’s the… how
[00:15:59] Josiah: it is …
[00:15:59] Rebekah: was such a choice. I
[00:16:00] Josiah: think that’s how it is in German.
[00:16:01] Rebekah: That is a choice- I looked it up today … that you made. That is, that is- I was so mad … two
[00:16:05] Tim: similar…
[00:16:05] Josiah: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:07] Rebekah: Mopple and Maple. And they hang out a lot. They’re two of the main characters.
[00:16:12] They are two of the three main- So you’re constantly hearing… Yes Mm-hmm … hearing their names together all the time. Unacceptable. And so now in the movie you have Lily and Mopple- Yes … which made much more sh- mm, sense.
[00:16:25] Josiah: More than you do. That’s sheep and sense combined.
[00:16:26] Tim: Yes.
[00:16:28] Rebekah: Yes. It was, yes. It was.
[00:16:28] Tim: Well, let me tell you-
[00:16:29] Josiah: Well,
[00:16:31] Tim: and she…
[00:16:31] Ugh … I pr- I preferred the, I preferred the Lily name for the main sheep. Well,
[00:16:36] Josiah: yeah, and it had significance
[00:16:38] Tim: by ending with an
[00:16:39] Josiah: E, too. It was simple and it has
[00:16:40] Donna: purpose. There was purpose. Sure, there’s purpose. It has a
[00:16:41] Tim: meaning.
[00:16:41] Donna: Josiah, tell us about the next character who I just loved.
[00:16:46] Josiah: Well, I mentioned Miss Marple was turned into Miss Maple- Mm
[00:16:49] apparently. Mm-hmm. Now we have an investigator named Holmes. Uh, I guess we don’t know his first name, but in the book we have Investigator- Sherlock? … Holmes, who is not very good at his job of figuring out the
[00:17:04] Rebekah: crime. And constantly mocked. Constantly mocked in the book for not being good at his job because his last name was Holmes and no one would let him live it down.
[00:17:12] Mm-hmm. And then they made fun of him for being bad at his job. Very British. Which I thought was actually very cute. Yes.
[00:17:17] Josiah: So in the film, the, that kind of role is played by an earnest policeman who is not a detective. I don’t think he would be considered- … an investigator, even. But he’s the little town’s only- No
[00:17:29] policeman. He’s a little doofus named Tim, Tim Derry. Mom was making jokes while we were watching it about- So they’re always- … oh, of course, it’s gotta be Tim
[00:17:39] Tim: Somebo- Timmy’s f- falling down the well. Lassie, s- save him. Yeah. Uh, Timmy’s always going crazy. Uh, the, the character has a line where he s- where he says, “No, no, I’m not a detective, but I am, I, I am always detecting things.”
[00:17:59] Mm-hmm. So he’s trying- I liked
[00:18:01] Josiah: that. I liked
[00:18:02] Rebekah: that. I thought his cutest little thing was when he’s at the trailer immediately after the murder, and I think the reporter, who was actually his- Mm-hmm … son says something about, “Have you searched,” you know. Yeah. And he says, “I’ve checked everywhere. Under the caravan, around the caravan.”
[00:18:22] And the guy says, “Have you checked inside the caravan?” And he said, “No?” And, and realizes he hasn’t. And I don’t remember his exact response, but he opens the door. I just thought that was so adorable.
[00:18:34] Tim: I think he says something like- He was- And he started opening just with his hands so he couldn’t get any fingerprints from it afterward.
[00:18:38] Rebekah: Yes.
[00:18:39] Tim: He had all
[00:18:40] Donna: those kinds of things. Yeah. And I, I liked-
[00:18:41] Rebekah: He’s a very good police detective …
[00:18:42] Donna: yeah, and I liked that they gave him a good arc where he matured and- Mm … took, you know, by the end of the movie he had kind of come into the charac- come into his position as policeman, and it- Yes … wasn’t seen as just whatever.
[00:18:59] And, uh, I will say, uh, Josiah, I think he laughed the loudest, loudest at any time Tim Derry was, um, was, uh, engaging with the lawyer. Mm. She would just k- got him off.
[00:19:15] Josiah: That was
[00:19:15] Tim: good. I have- It was good … a tiny little bit of trivia with, with, for the actor and for this role.
[00:19:20] Josiah: Mm-hmm. Me
[00:19:20] Tim: too. Um, in a behind-the-scenes, uh, thing he said that the costume designer was very specific and wanted to work with him for some specific reasons.
[00:19:33] The clothing he’s wearing at the beginning is supposed to be ill-fitting, and it makes him- Mm-hmm … look more goofy.
[00:19:43] Donna: Aw.
[00:19:43] Tim: And as they get to the time when he’s beginning to solve the crime, he’s wearing better fitting clothing and things like that. Mm-hmm. And he said, “I was so, I was so impressed that the costume designer cared that much about the character that they were designing- Mm
[00:20:00] the clothes to help- Yeah … the character.” He said, “You would probably never notice it, but- Yeah … people look at it and say, well, he’s, he’s getting smarter or whatever.” Well, part of it is that he, he looks sharper in his clothing as well. Mm-hmm. So I just thought that was interesting.
[00:20:16] Josiah: I like that.
[00:20:16] Rebekah: That’s so cleverly subtle.
[00:20:18] Tim: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Rebekah: One interesting change that I think I liked, I think it works in both the book and the film the way they did it, though. The film sheep are read detective novels all the time. Mm-hmm. That’s, uh, what George reads to them primarily. The book sheep have only ever heard romance novels and one half of a mystery book, which George didn’t like and he put down before getting to the end.
[00:20:42] A
[00:20:42] Josiah: little crazy.
[00:20:45] Tim: I did not care for that- Which was funny … in the book.
[00:20:48] Rebekah: Really? I
[00:20:49] Tim: didn’t like that- Why not? I didn’t like that in the book because it’s like, okay, so-
[00:20:55] Josiah: What’s the premise? H-
[00:20:56] Tim: how can they… Yeah. How can they be- Mm-hmm … working on a mystery when they didn’t even hear the whole thing? Well, they
[00:21:06] Rebekah: do- And it’s not the diet they had
[00:21:06] so the way that I think, the way that I think it changed things was in some of the love stories that they had read, there were still murders and some things like that. Mm-hmm. True. There was always a Pamela and- But in the film, Lily- … different
[00:21:19] Tim: things. Yeah …
[00:21:20] Rebekah: yes, Lily becomes a pretty sharp detective because she’s heard all these detective novels.
[00:21:25] Yeah. In the book, it takes them so much longer to get to the point. So much longer. Because they’re not only figur- Well, yes. They’re not only figuring out what happened. Like, they’re not only- The specifics … figuring out the specifics of his murder, they are learning how police work even functions. They’re learning what investigating is, and all- Mm
[00:21:49] of those things. So I think it worked for the format that the author chose to take with it, but I think it’s one of the things that made the book probably too long compared to what it probably could’ve been.
[00:22:01] Josiah: I have two things to say about this. First of all, my earlier comment about Prometheus giving fire to humans, the crime novels are George giving fire- That’s the fire
[00:22:15] to the sheep. I think that is the- They would eat grass … the cleanest.
[00:22:20] Tim: Unless…
[00:22:21] Josiah: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Rebekah: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Josiah: And two, I’m going to try to remember what I was thinking for number two.
[00:22:32] Rebekah: The book was too long
[00:22:34] Josiah: There’s something about this, the novels
[00:22:37] Tim: The romance novels
[00:22:41] Josiah: Oh.
[00:22:41] Rebekah: There was always a Pamela
[00:22:42] Josiah: Have you ever seen Only Murders in the Building?
[00:22:45] Tim: Nope.
[00:22:46] Rebekah: Yes.
[00:22:46] Josiah: Okay. Nope. I think part of the appeal of that show is that people love true crime podcasts. They watch the show and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is how I would be if a murder happened in my building.
[00:22:58] I would totally wanna make a podcast about it.” And so I think- Yeah … the sheep in the movie are acting like the audience members who want to watch a comfy, cozy, uh, detective, a, a, a whodunit. Whereas the sheep in the book- I’ve watched the whodunit- Yes …
[00:23:14] Tim: and so I want to do it
[00:23:16] Josiah: They’re less like- Mm-hmm … avatars of the audience.
[00:23:18] So the film sheep are actually closer to audience avatars, which I think helps- Gotcha … audience connection. There are tongue in cheek jabs at human religion. Mm-hmm. The movie does have a beaver God joke that mom laughed at, but not much- That- … in the way of jabbing at- What are you guys- … human religion. Wait.
[00:23:38] Mom loved that joke.
[00:23:40] Donna: No, the whole… That whole section- I
[00:23:45] Tim: loved that
[00:23:46] Donna: part about religion … where they’re telling the… They’re explaining, uh, which of the sheep is explaining to- Lilly and Mopple, um- It’s the older sheep that- Is it Sebastian or is it Richfield … it’s the older
[00:23:58] Tim: sheep that said, “Go ahead and walk across the-” Sebastian
[00:24:01] “thrice.” It’s just the three of them.
[00:24:02] Donna: Oh, s- yeah, it is Sebastian. Okay. When he’s explaining God to them, I, that completely came out of nowhere for me, and when he said, “Yeah, I mean, well, God, God is a shepherd.” Oh, he could be our shepherd? Well, no- But he’s also sheep … actually, he’s also a lamb.
[00:24:22] Tim: Yeah.
[00:24:23] Donna: And I was like, wait, they just got profoundly religious just a mo- But-
[00:24:27] for a moment there …
[00:24:27] Tim: I, I don’t remember the beaver part because the next part in what she’s talking about- The- … is, “And they, they eat him every Sunday.”
[00:24:35] Donna: Yeah, and- … but they- Yes … he says- It’s communion … something about, um-
[00:24:40] Tim: I was thinking about it in terms of how somebody outside of religion might look at some of those things.
[00:24:48] That’s, that was part of the problem in the Roman Empire. Mm-hmm. They thought Christians were cannibals because they ate their leader. Hmm. And they despised cannibalism and thought, “Well, those people should be killed ’cause those-” Oh … “were terrible people.”
[00:25:02] Rebekah: I looked it up. So they said- Mm-hmm … he’s a shepherd, but he’s also a lamb.
[00:25:07] He is invisible, but also somehow bread- Mm-hmm … because they eat him every day. Yes. And he dams things, which the sheep hear as dams like beavers build. And she says, “
[00:25:16] Donna: Like
[00:25:16] Rebekah: a beaver?” So he must be- Yeah … he must be a big, invisible lamb beaver made of bread.
[00:25:21] Donna: Yeah. And
[00:25:22] Rebekah: Mopple’s response- Ah … is basically- Oh
[00:25:24] Donna: my
[00:25:24] Rebekah: God
[00:25:25] poor God.
[00:25:26] Donna: I died over that. And it’s, but I was sitting there watching it thinking, they just, they just gave a sermon about how humanity-
[00:25:38] Rebekah: Yeah …
[00:25:39] Donna: all the different ways humanity sees God, and how we see him in correct ways, but how we can see him in incorrect ways that do not line up with his word, that do not line, but we come up with these ideas in our head, and I, I loved it.
[00:25:56] I was just… I was really impressed with it. I felt like it was a great… I thought you could use it for a great sermon illustration. I, I just… I was really, really loved it.
[00:26:08] Rebekah: The he’s a shepherd, but he’s also a lamb- Mm-hmm … did hit me. Mm-hmm. And I also laughed hysterically at the beaver joke. Oh my
[00:26:15] Donna: gosh, yes.
[00:26:15] Rebekah: I thought it was hilarious.
[00:26:17] I actually, one of my favorite parts of the book, which again, it was so sweet, and then it got really old eventually, was when they mistook the priest for being God- Yes … because he lives in God’s house, and that was why that’s- Yeah … what they thought his name was. I thought that was so funny because every time they would talk about it, it was so accidentally sacrilegious, and it was so funny.
[00:26:41] Like, I thought it was- Yeah … very funny.
[00:26:43] Tim: And he went into a pen His pen inside the church, the confessional.
[00:26:51] Donna: Yeah, that was a great little
[00:26:53] Tim: section- He went into his own sheep pen …
[00:26:54] Donna: when they watched him go in and out of there. Yeah, that was cool.
[00:26:57] Rebekah: Amazing. So there’s an element in the film that was removed, I think that was interesting.
[00:27:03] I, I think I know why they did it. But- Mm-hmm … in the book, the sheep were planning to go to Europe. Mm-hmm. That was something that George had planned for them. Yeah. He wanted to take them to Europe, and he always told them about Europe and how it was all these open fields of, uh, lush green grass, and it was an really sweet thing that he wanted to do with them.
[00:27:24] And very, they were all very sad when he died because they had all wanted to go to Europe, and they didn’t know how they were going to Europe. And I understand why it needed to be removed for the film. Mm-hmm. I, I think it made sense, but it was- Mm … such a sweet thing. I, it was a little sad for me that it was gone.
[00:27:45] Josiah: Yes. I think it made sense within the genre of the murder mystery to make the will reading, first of all, earlier, and second of all, give you more clues- Mm-hmm … about who murdered and who had motive. Yeah. And it’s so weird to me that this wasn’t from the book, ’cause it was, it was interesting. I think it was pointless in a way that I really don’t like murder mysteries, and I’ll talk more about that later.
[00:28:11] The fact that the will had gathered all of these people in, and George posthumously says, “There’s a bad shepherd, and two murderers, and a winter lamb,” and a blah, blah, blah here and there. And then you as the audience get to sort out who’s each one- Mm-hmm … was fun, but also-
[00:28:30] Donna: Yeah …
[00:28:30] Josiah: why did George say all of that?
[00:28:33] Who… What… Does that matter?
[00:28:36] Donna: You mean the section in the film when she was reading the will?
[00:28:39] Tim: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:40] Donna: I felt like I, I, I wondered about that. I wondered if-
[00:28:46] Tim: I thought it matched his character when he, when he basically threw the money at the-
[00:28:50] Donna: Mm …
[00:28:50] Tim: at the priest. Hmm. Um, it was kind of like, you know, this debt’s paid kind of thing.
[00:28:56] Donna: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:57] Tim: It was… He was not the most likable of- Yeah … people even in the film.
[00:29:03] Donna: Yeah.
[00:29:04] Tim: And I, I felt like that was, that was kinda why that was. Hmm. Call them all together ’cause their names are all mentioned in my will, so they all have to be present.
[00:29:15] Rebekah: So did we like the removal of the Europe trip or no?
[00:29:18] Josiah: I like the Europe trip as a theme in the book.
[00:29:23] Rebekah: Yeah. I
[00:29:24] Josiah: don’t think it works as a theme
[00:29:26] Donna: in the movie. But what could they have done? How could they have done it in the movie? Fair. Hmm.
[00:29:29] Tim: Too much of a, too much of a side trip for no particular reason.
[00:29:34] Josiah: Insane to me. Yeah. Does any- Would anyone consider this book a murder mystery? So little of it was, was a whodunit.
[00:29:44] Yeah.
[00:29:45] Donna: Yeah.
[00:29:46] Tim: Really?
[00:29:48] Josiah: I mean, like- How long did it take for them to figure out, “We should investigate the…” Uh, th- th- they’re like half the book and they’re still trying to figure out what a policeman is. Uh-
[00:30:00] Tim: Yeah. The book, the book takes too long to do that, if that’s what you mean. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um-
[00:30:05] Josiah: And then it’s not a murder
[00:30:06] it felt like it was- Spoiler alert
[00:30:12] But
[00:30:12] Rebekah: y- Fortunately, we already gave a spoiler
[00:30:14] Josiah: alert I mention that- Yeah … because the will reading in the movie serves to further- Mm-hmm … the murder mystery.
[00:30:21] Donna: Yeah. True. I think they went full on, like, Knives Out murder mystery. The, I think they went fully in that direction, which I, I, I enjoyed, so I mean-
[00:30:29] Josiah: Very
[00:30:30] Donna: inspired-
[00:30:30] I wasn’t, uh, sad about that …
[00:30:31] Josiah: by Knives Out.
[00:30:33] Tim: The film has no drug trafficking plot line, including its explanation for George’s small fortune. I appreciated the fact that he had invented something that made his fortune.
[00:30:48] Donna: Yeah, that was clever.
[00:30:49] Tim: He was much more likable. He invented something for the sheep that-
[00:30:51] Donna: Mm-hmm
[00:30:52] Tim: made him a character that you care about. We’ve, we’ve had plenty of movies recently especially where you just don’t care about the characters. Mm-hmm. You, “Hey, they’re all real people.” It’s like, yeah, a- and nobody cares, ’cause there’s nothing about them that’s likable or- Yeah … relatable. You know, they’re just rotten people.
[00:31:17] Yeah, it, it’s really hard to watch something like that. So I appreciated that change.
[00:31:21] Josiah: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, Sebastian dies in the film after protecting- Oh … Lillian Mauple from vicious dogs. This made us cry, me and Mom. I- Oh my God. It did. I don’t even know if it was totally necessary. It was, it was very sad.
[00:31:39] Um, I, I think it works with the themes of George dying. Um, I don’t know if he needed to die, and you know me, I love characters dying. I really do. Yeah.
[00:31:51] Rebekah: We do know that about you.
[00:31:52] Josiah: Sebastian’s book counterpart, Othello, does not die. Though I think there is a part where he is trying to teach the flock how to fight back against herding dogs.
[00:32:04] Is this because Gabriel- Oh … is their shepherd and he uses dogs or something like that? Or is that me combining film- You mean- … and book stuff?
[00:32:14] Donna: You mean Sebastian’s motivation for, for him trying to help them?
[00:32:20] Josiah: No, Othello’s- I think part
[00:32:21] Donna: of- …
[00:32:22] Josiah: m- motivation for teaching the flock- Oh, you mean Othello’s … how to fight the- Hmm.
[00:32:25] Gotcha … against the herding dogs. Is that just for fun?
[00:32:29] Rebekah: I don’t remember at all any of that from the book, so-
[00:32:33] Josiah: Does Gabriel- Yeah, me and Mom- … take charge of them at all? Yes, briefly. It feels like it did. Okay, okay.
[00:32:40] Donna: I’m beginning to pick up several clues about our comments at the end of this about how we thought about the book.
[00:32:48] Um- No. I will say about the Sebe- I will say about the death of Sebastian, um, I felt like- It, the, kudos to the screenwriters because they did take a lot from the book. There, there’s a lot in it, but they retooled it in such clever ways. And how they had Mopple and Lilly just innocently walk over into this other meadow just thinking, “It’s no different than our meadow.”
[00:33:27] I mean, and they just, it, it, they just walk over. I kind of, I did anticipate they would walk into the barn and see something different. Like, that part didn’t surprise me. But then for them to be challenged by the dogs, their running, and then to have Sebastian come in and, and sacrifice himself for that.
[00:33:52] And he had told her his story, and that was very heart-wrenching. ‘Cause I was like, “Why did they put this in here where poor Sebastian was in a carnival, and he was, had to fi-” I mean, it was like, ugh, it was so- It was hard … emotional. And then to see him do that for them because as far as they knew, he had just left them because he’d gotten frustrated and angry.
[00:34:19] And you know, I don’t have a s- I don’t have a herd or, you know, whatever. Um-
[00:34:23] Tim: The writer, the writer of the-
[00:34:25] Donna: Man …
[00:34:25] Tim: the screenplay- Mm-hmm … and the director were, in an interview they said, “We were very intentional-” Mm-hmm “… about dealing with death. We, we purposefully wanted to deal with death.” And so that’s part of the reason they put that part in there.
[00:34:43] Donna: Yeah. I thought it was, I thought it was done well. So in another change that probably- This is probably my favorite part of the movie. The film adds this intentional memory loss feature for, for the sheep except for Mopple. Now, that’s the same. In the book, they, they make this, they make a point to say Mopple the whale remembers everything.
[00:35:13] Josiah: He never
[00:35:13] Donna: forgets. But the rest of them-
[00:35:15] Rebekah: Yeah …
[00:35:16] Donna: it’s not an intentional forgetting. Yeah. It’s just they’re just forgetful.
[00:35:21] Josiah: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:21] Donna: You know, they’re just, they’re sheep. They’re dumb as sheep, right? Um, m- and that, that’s, they just kinda wander through, and they just don’t retain things. But in the film, this leads to this poignant moment where Lily has to choose to remember Sebastian’s death.
[00:35:41] I knew the first time they said, “We’re going to forget this. One, two, three,” and this thing happens, and they all go glassy-eyed except Mopple. And then they tease you a little bit more when they talk about the sheep becoming clouds, and you see all over Mopple’s face he has to decide to lie to them And then they go on, and then there’s a little something else that comes up, and it, this, the same thing.
[00:36:10] And then I, so I knew. I was like, “Okay, what is it that they’re going to have to choose to remember?” And I thought it was so maturely written for Mopple to be like, “No, you need to remember.” That it, you, you have to-
[00:36:27] Tim: And then Lily asks
[00:36:28] Donna: the
[00:36:28] Tim: question- Yeah … there, there have been many, many things that I sh- should remember.
[00:36:33] Donna: Yeah. And then she’ll be like, “Wow, I, I can’t remember my parents turning to clouds.” And then later she’s like- Or my friends … “Oh, that didn’t, did it?” And I, I was so touched by that. I f- I was so, I, I mean, I was affected by that, and I loved it. Um, I felt like it was handled really well. Um, a- and it, they could have passed over it.
[00:37:02] I mean, they, they could have not done that. Um, but I was really, really glad. And I was also glad to see the rest of the herd was like, “No. No, no, we’re gonna forget.” She was like, “No, you can’t. You can’t.” And to show that’s realistic. It, we make those decisions, and it seems like it would be easier not to experience pain, but when you realize that it’s the only way you can move on, um, is to go through it and move through it, uh, is, it’s really cool.
[00:37:37] Josiah: I think that I need to retroactively reduce my The Giver book rating by .5- Okay … ’cause now I realize that The Giver never really, I think, shows the everyday human cost of only one person in the community remembering. Mm-hmm. I to- I leaned to Mom when this happened- Mm … and I was like, “This just described the point of the giver, of the receiver of memories from the giver better than the receiver- Wow
[00:38:10] better than The Giver ever did.”
[00:38:12] Donna: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:13] Rebekah: Fair.
[00:38:14] Donna: I agree.
[00:38:16] Rebekah: It was so heavy at the beginning when they’re talking about the cloud sheep and she asks Mopple, you know, about did she see her parents- Mm … become cloud sheep or whatever, and then he just couldn’t tell her the real an- I mean, I was just like, “Oh.”
[00:38:33] Donna: The way he emoted was-
[00:38:36] Rebekah: It was beautiful
[00:38:37] Donna: crazy. And, uh, my friend, uh, my friend Laurie went with us to see it the first time, and we had… She had also gone to see Project Hail Mary with me, and honestly, neither of these movies, this one or Project Hail Mary, were m- movies she would just normally go, “Oh, I wanna go see that.” That’s just not her thing.
[00:38:57] But she went- Yeah … because I wanted to go and, and all that. And w- when we got to this point, and I think it was probably, probably the point where, uh, could’ve been Sebastian, it could’ve been earlier, but Laurie looked at me, she’s like, “You’ve gotta stop taking me to movies where I cry. I gotta s- We can’t do this.”
[00:39:17] And her mom was with us. She was crying. Oh. And so most of our party was crying. I was like, “I love this,” because it was so unexpected, and that kind of crying I don’t mind. Yeah.
[00:39:30] Tim: One of the reviews that I looked at today, um, the guy said he, he went to see this kids movie, you know, this, this lighthearted movie or whatever, and he said of course by the end he’s going, “No, really, it’s just-
[00:39:43] it’s just the allergies,” you know? So appa- apparently it’s a tearjerker of- Yeah … to most people, so.
[00:39:51] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:39:53] Tim: Well, on a slightly different note-
[00:39:56] Rebekah: Mm-hmm …
[00:39:56] Tim: the book sheep perform at the Smartest Sheep in Glinkil Contest.
[00:40:03] Donna: What else
[00:40:09] do? The film- What’s that? This is so stupid.
[00:40:11] Josiah: This is so stupid. I thought it was appropriate- Yeah … for the book to end on- Yeah … such a silly little thing.
[00:40:16] Tim: The film has them do a performance, but not, not at that kind of an event. Mm-hmm. Mm. Um, and I thought they referenced the fact that Lilly was the smartest sheep, but he’d never entered her in that contest because I, I, I- thought that somewhere in the b- um, I think it was in the book, that they hadn’t entered him in the contest because- Mm
[00:40:43] it was-
[00:40:44] Josiah: Demeaning …
[00:40:45] Tim: superfluous. She was- Or something … well, it would make somebody else look bad, and she, everybody knew she was smarter. So it was j- it was kinda strange. It was just a, a passing thing- Yeah, it was- … in an audiobook …
[00:40:57] Donna: so weird.
[00:40:57] Rebekah: Yeah, if you’ve only, if you’ve only seen the movie, in the book, this is a very long chapter about this contest and how they set up their performance and all of the ways that it goes wrong.
[00:41:09] Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that it essentially throws someone into a confession. Mm-hmm. And it, it’s, again, w- you’ve mm, you’ve heard us say it, I think already in this episode, but it was one of the ways that it just felt like the book just dragged things on for so long, so.
[00:41:28] Josiah: Yeah, it… For those of you who haven’t read the book, it’s the, they have this every year.
[00:41:32] It’s a tourist, tourist trap to invite people from all- Yeah … the, the Land of Ire. It’s the- Mm-hmm … everyone brings their sheep on stage, and they do little tricks. And the sheep, even though George is dead, they go on and they perform how they believe George was murdered, and try and get the- Mm … humans to realize, “This is how George was murdered.”
[00:41:55] And I think a- Yeah … the dr- the town drunkard kind of recognizes it. And then Beth, the devout Christian, who the sheep are accusing of murdering, um- George comes up and gives a g- big confession, which I think we’ll talk about in a second
[00:42:11] Rebekah: Well, and funnily enough, they r- the sheep, they… We didn’t even mention this.
[00:42:16] In the book, the sheep rely so heavily on their sense of smell, and they think that humans don’t have souls because they’re such bad smellers. Like- Mm-hmm … it’s this whole process- Yes … and theme throughout the book. And so yes, they act out the murder, but they use a rag with Beth’s smell on it- … as this big accusatory thing, which is why no one except Beth understands it.
[00:42:42] Like, it’s so confusing.
[00:42:44] Donna: Yeah, and I thought they- It
[00:42:46] Rebekah: was interesting …
[00:42:46] Donna: I, I wa- I kinda got the impression that the one, the one sheep or ram that came in and he was like, “Well, yeah, I mean, the rest of them perform, but I, I win. I actually win all the time.” And, and it’s- “I’m the only winner” … ‘
[00:43:00] Josiah: cause he likes drinking Guinness.
[00:43:01] Donna: And it’s because he likes Guinness. And I’m like, “What are, where are we going with this?” He’s an alcoholic sheep. An alcoholic sheep? Because I don’t only get it here, I get to go all over the place, and I get to drink Guinness every… I’m like, “Oh, my gosh.”
[00:43:15] Josiah: That, that was interesting to me- Mm … because he says- Yeah
[00:43:17] “What am I good at, that I win these competitions for? Drinking Guinness.” And they’re like, “Why do you want to win so badly?” And he says, “‘Cause I get Guinness.” The reward- And
[00:43:28] Donna: we go to other places, and I get more Guinness.
[00:43:30] Josiah: The reward for me drinking Guinness is more Guinness. I was like, “Oh, that’s an interesting thing.”
[00:43:34] That has nothing to do with
[00:43:37] Rebekah: the rest of the plot. That is how
[00:43:38] Donna: alcoholics believe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it works.
[00:43:39] Josiah: One of my, one of my favorite lines, I’m gonna butcher it. One of my favorite lines from the book is in this smartest sheep in Glencoe contest, when the sheep is, like, doing nothing, and it’s so stupid in that sometimes the sheep mess up, and the people keep clapping for the sheep.
[00:43:58] And the main character sheep are like, “Man, people love sheep.” People, people are so focused- Yeah … and interested in sheep. We had no idea they cared this much. What are they even
[00:44:12] Donna: doing?
[00:44:15] Rebekah: So it is at this point in the story, however- Whoa … when Beth gets up to give said confes- oh, yes, sorry, in the book story.
[00:44:24] This is not in the film. It is at this point in the book story that when Beth gives her confession, we learn that George actually was not murdered at all. George took his own life because he was very lonely and a sad, sad person who had lost his will to live. And it’s interesting reading it through the perspective of the sheep because they don’t understand the concept of suicide, so it’s very foreign to them.
[00:44:52] It’s not actually something that they really process or work their way through very easily. In the film, it’s… It is a poisoning, it is a murder, and we find out at this point that Elliot, the son, who was preten- or is the reporter’s name Elliot Pretending to be the reporter. Yes. Elliot, who- Anyway Peter’s
[00:45:14] Josiah: the brother Van
[00:45:15] Donna: Veuran is
[00:45:16] Rebekah: Peter.
[00:45:16] Van Veuran. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Peter pretending to be Elliot the reporter poisoned G- uh, George. Mm-hmm. And they discover it because of the way that he… There was green stuff on one of George’s hands and, um, so they, the sheep do kind of point to that. They are the detectives who solve the murder. But it’s very different, and I think that this tonal shift is really key to why the book and the film are so different.
[00:45:46] It’s the same tonal shift that takes out the drugs that- Mm … that George and his friends ran and made money from, and it, it just, it removes, uh… You just remove so much of the darkness and the heaviness of it when you take out some of those more adult themes. And I can’t say I was upset about it- Yeah
[00:46:07] although I do think that while I have plenty of qualms with this book, I was, I was, like, ki- I was over it by the time I finished too. I just felt like a lot of things dragged on too long, whatever. But by the time we did get to this point and I finally heard this, I did stop in my tracks a little bit, and it, it was fairly moving when you read, you know, George I believe wrote a letter, and we learn a little bit more about his state of mind and- Mm-hmm.
[00:46:35] So I, I thought it was poignant. I thought that part of the book was well done, although I would’ve liked to get there a little bit faster. But yeah, it was a, it was a really interesting turn. I did not expect it. It, it definitely took me by surprise. Mm-hmm.
[00:46:49] Tim: It did me too, when your mom was listening to it out loud when I was still three and a half hours from the end of the book.
[00:46:56] Josiah: So wow. Wow, you’re really revealing yourself to the audience here
[00:47:02] Donna: Donna …
[00:47:02] Tim: that I hear, that I heard the ending of the book before I was finished. That you-
[00:47:05] Donna: And Bob had it turned down low and he had earbuds in
[00:47:10] Josiah: You were
[00:47:10] Rebekah: spoiled.
[00:47:11] Donna: Guess I- Turns
[00:47:11] Rebekah: out you weren’t being as considerate as you thought.
[00:47:13] Tim: Well, she didn’t.
[00:47:14] She reacted to it right out, right off the bat. She said, “You’ve got to be kidding me.”
[00:47:19] Donna: Oh, I was so mad. I was so angry. You were mad? I was so- And I said- … angry that that was it … “That’s the ending,
[00:47:26] Josiah: isn’t it?” So.
[00:47:27] Donna: Oh, my gosh. Oh, I was infuriated.
[00:47:30] Rebekah: That’s so funny. I was brought back in.
[00:47:32] Josiah: The solution to a whodunit shouldn’t be nobody.
[00:47:37] Is no one. There’s a promise that you make to your reader- Except the part, like, except then she- And Rebecca, you don’t ca- I don’t care either. But yes, you don’t care ’cause the book wasn’t good enough. It wasn’t that, it wasn’t that good. And so who cares wh- who, what the answer to the whodunit is? It, it’s not a well-written enough book to keep us, to keep our interest.
[00:47:58] But in theory, you make a whodunit, and the answer is not pulled out of the, the butt of the author.
[00:48:09] Donna: Well, what did you think about Book Beth if you hate mysteries?
[00:48:11] Josiah: Well, what I think I hate is red herrings. Um- Hmm. Hmm. But hey- Yeah … Book Beth, well, we talked about Book Beth being a devout Christian. She was the one who confessed to driving the spade into George after he- Yeah
[00:48:28] uh, died by suicide to help- Lord Jesus … cover up the manner of his death.
[00:48:33] Rebekah: All right, let’s give final verdicts. Yeah. I’m gonna go first, mostly ’cause I’m falling asleep- Going to collapse … right this second, and I’m trying really hard not to. Hoo. Um- Sit
[00:48:45] Donna: up and talk to
[00:48:46] Rebekah: us. So yeah, sit up. I’m gonna lean. Um, I think that, I mean, you’ve already heard a lot of how I feel about this book- Mm-hmm
[00:48:56] and the film. I had a really hard time getting through the book. I thought the conceit was really precious. I thought it was very sweet. I loved a lot of the charming things at the beginning, you know, with their names, and Mopple the whale I thought was such a funny little name, and how Miss Maple’s the most intelligent sheep in Glenkill, possibly the world, or probably the world, or whatever.
[00:49:20] Mm-hmm. Anyway, all of that to say I thought there was a lot that was really well done about this very unique concept, but I think it left a lot to be desired in the execution, because I was so over it. By about halfway through I thought, “Okay, can we just get to the murder solving?” I didn’t so much mind the suicide being the solution, like what they found was actually had happened, but it did, it did bother me how…
[00:49:48] Honestly, it bothered me how much time they kept spending on sheep issues where they would just be in a group and be talking about something that was about sheep things that wasn’t related to the mystery, and it went on for so, so, so long. Mm-hmm. And so I, um, I really enjoyed the movie. Again, unfortunately I had to watch it jet lagged.
[00:50:09] I tried to see it t- three different times in Thailand, and every time we just couldn’t make the showing by like 45 minutes. And so, um, unfortunately watching it sleepy I feel like I didn’t appreciate it as much as I probably do appreciate it. So I probably am gonna go back and see it again, because I liked, I liked it, but I was having such a hard time- Mm-hmm
[00:50:30] focusing because of the jet lag. Oh, do see it again. So I think- I, I agree you should Yeah. I think unquestionably the film is better in this case for sure. And I felt the vibe from Phil Lord and Chris Miller who consulted on the film. Mm-hmm. So I do think that that’s, uh, you know, I’m glad that they made a big deal to recommend it.
[00:50:50] As for those of you who forgot, those are the Project Hail Mary directors. So I thought the film was really charming and well done in many ways. I liked that it brought me some of the absurdist comedy that I think I miss. Mm. Because these days it feels like the absurdist comedy is always paired with lots of really inappropriate stuff as well.
[00:51:13] Mm-hmm. And this was absurdist, not childish, but absurdist. Mm-hmm. And it worked as a family movie. So I thought that that was really cool. Yeah. I would give the… Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Josh. I just,
[00:51:26] Josiah: I think, I wonder if that stems from Monty Python. I think that Monty Python is, was such a big deal- Interesting … in Britain, and I don’t think…
[00:51:36] I, I think that America’s Monty Python unfortunately is SNL. And so we don’t have that sort of absurdist- Mm. Yeah … for absurdity’s sake, uh, in the American cultural memory as much as British people do. Mm.
[00:51:50] Tim: I could see
[00:51:51] Rebekah: that. Interesting. Yeah. It makes sense. Um, so I would probably give, I think I gave the book I’m like, I’m multiplying it by two ’cause I do out of five star book ratings.
[00:52:04] I would, I think I gave the book something like a six and a half, six, six and a half. Like, it was… I, I liked the wrap-up and I thought the establishment of it was good. I just didn’t love the length. I thought it could have been a third shorter at least. But it wasn’t, like, horrible. It wasn’t the worst thing I’ve ever read by a very, very long shot.
[00:52:26] But I do think the movie was better. I’d probably give it, like, a seven and a half, eight out of 10. So it wasn’t something that I’m gonna just, like, watch all the time. I loved how poignant it was. But yeah, I think the, the movie was better in this case. I don’t know that I would really recommend reading the book.
[00:52:42] I, like, I’m trying to think of who would be the target audience that would really love it. I think, uh, if you’re really into that cozy genre and you don’t- Yeah … mind something that takes a little winding path to get where it’s going-
[00:52:56] Josiah: If you like- Yeah,
[00:52:57] Rebekah: maybe it would be good for you …
[00:52:58] Josiah: Thursday Murder Club, this is similar enough.
[00:53:03] Donna: Yeah.
[00:53:03] Rebekah: True.
[00:53:04] Donna: Yeah, that’s true.
[00:53:05] Rebekah: True.
[00:53:06] Josiah: I’ll go next. I really loved the beginning of the book, was my favorite part. The first chapter where it feels like they’re just becoming sentient. I loved that, and then it was hard to follow. It’s like, what is the plot? It takes them so long to figure out nothing and i- it’s- Mm
[00:53:28] meandering. And then the end, I kinda liked the shee- the smartest sheep thing. I thought it was a, a, a bit of a spectacle. Um, I wish they had maybe built up to it more than just mentioning it the chapter before or something. I, I’m not, not that I’m 100% sure they didn’t mention it every single chapter and I somehow took a sleep, sleeping draft.
[00:53:50] They did not. Okay, thank you.
[00:53:52] Donna: They did not.
[00:53:52] Josiah: So I don’t like murder mysteries. I think that murder mysteries generally rely on an audience’s desire for pure escapism and, you know, I know present company doesn’t all agree with me, but I just think that pure escapism is not, um, something that I want to engage with, and I don’t really like other people wanting to engage with pure escapism.
[00:54:20] This film, and even the book, I don’t think was pure-
[00:54:23] Rebekah: That’s so rude …
[00:54:23] Josiah: escapism.
[00:54:26] Rebekah: Why is that so rude? Why are you saying mean things?
[00:54:27] Josiah: I know. You can watch your Transformer movies. That’s okay
[00:54:32] Rebekah: I don’t even like Transformers.
[00:54:34] Josiah: Ah. Well, you’re a good person then.
[00:54:37] Tim: I do want you to, to kind of explain what you mean by that, probably off-camera, but-
[00:54:43] Josiah: Escapism
[00:54:44] pure escapism. Oh, I just think it’s, it’s a tough pill for me to swallow that you just, uh, escape from reality is something that people wanna do. It’s like, I don’t know, don’t, don’t live in… Don’t let yourself live in a reality that you wanna escape from all the time. I don’t know. I know that’s easier said than done.
[00:55:05] Um- Hmm … but also I don’t think relaxing is bad. Relax on your couch, and this is one way to relax. So, uh, if it’s about relaxing more than escaping, which are similar things, maybe I could swallow that more. But, uh-
[00:55:21] Rebekah: Maybe escapism is also something people can use to escape a life that they enjoy but maybe feel overwhelmed by at times.
[00:55:30] Like peop- If you have a, a high-level job, you might enjoy your life, but you have a lot going on, and so maybe that’s the kind of person that goes to see the Super Mario Galaxy movie and really loves it, like me.
[00:55:40] Josiah: I mean,
[00:55:41] Rebekah: Mario Ga- I don’t- I’m not saying it’s ’cause of my job … Mario Galaxy …
[00:55:43] Josiah: I just mean- That had some themes of sisterhood.
[00:55:46] That made me feel like w- yeah, sisters. Go, sister. It was beautiful when they touched their hands together. I was like, “They haven’t seen each other for all these years, and it’s still so powerful. The love of family, it makes me think about how much I love family.” Um, that was the main theme. Th- Mario Galaxy was pretty thin.
[00:56:05] But I’m like so many whodunits are just about who done it, and then when you leave the theater, when you leave the physical theater… I saw, I saw a murder mystery recently in the theater in, in like a f- as a stage play. When you finish- Live play. Yeah, a live play. When you finish a book that’s a murder mystery, I feel like usually you close the book.
[00:56:26] The idea of the murder mystery as a genre is that you can then put it on the shelf and say, “All right. That was a time that I spent. I enjoyed spending that time doing that, and now I don’t have to think about it ’cause the mystery’s solved This is not exactly that. So I don’t l- I didn’t like the murder…
[00:56:46] Honestly, the movie is not gonna score as high as other recent movies for me because of the murder mystery elements of it. But it had a lot of non-murder mystery elements that I liked, with the sheep and the, from the sheep’s perspective and, uh- Yeah … moving on and mourning and not forgetting, all of that fun stuff.
[00:57:07] So ultimately, I think the book’s probably a six for me. It wasn’t horrible. It’s too long. It’s meandering. But, like, it’s, it’s very cute. It’s a bunch of sheep puns and sheep figuring out, uh, you know, thinking about human things. It was cute. I’m still gonna give it a six. It’s not, it’s not going below the halfway point.
[00:57:28] And then the movie is strong. It’s… I would, I would not, uh, you know, balk at watching it again if friends wanted to go with me. I would not balk at it being put on at a party or something. I don’t know. I, I liked it. It was a solid eight out of 10 for me. So I think the film is clearly better in my view.
[00:57:49] Tim: Okay. For me, I would give, I would give the book, uh, probably a six and a half out of 10. Um, I think the concept is awesome. Uh, the, the word that we’re using now for that is the conceit, um, which is- … which is just a strange word for me to use for that. Yeah, I just made
[00:58:08] Rebekah: that up.
[00:58:09] Tim: That, that’s a strange word, I think, to use for it.
[00:58:13] But- It’s
[00:58:13] Rebekah: a… Well, it’s… I don’t know …
[00:58:15] Tim: the concept-
[00:58:16] Rebekah: Mm …
[00:58:17] Tim: I’m more comfortable with that word, but the concept, I think, is awesome. What, what’s a
[00:58:20] Josiah: concept? I’ve never heard of this.
[00:58:24] Tim: Conceptual thinking, you know. Um, I think the concept is really neat. I think the execution is too meandering, too long, and I really struggled with the narrator I would have probably done better had the narrator- Mm-hmm
[00:58:46] had an, had a German accent- Interesting … than, than a Gaelic accent. Mm-hmm. Because it was harder to hear. It was harder to understand. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that’s said by someone who, when I had a Garmin, I changed the voice to an Australian because I, I, I can understand that better, it works better. But this was just difficult to, to listen to.
[00:59:11] Josiah: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:12] Tim: Um, and it, and it was just… It just seemed to go on a lot longer than it needed to. What’s the… The audiobook was 12 hours?
[00:59:19] Donna: Mm-hmm. Something
[00:59:20] Tim: like that. Something like that.
[00:59:21] Donna: At regular speed, yeah.
[00:59:23] Tim: I could have seen, I could have seen it cut down to three hours worth of, of book, or, uh, nine hours of book, and that would’ve been a lot better.
[00:59:32] I thought there were things in it that, that were, you know, Josiah said you don’t like red herrings. I don’t like story points that are dead ends. Yeah. You, you’ve talked about that before. You know, it’s a, it’s a story arc that’s an absolute dead end. You use another term for it sometimes. Um-
[00:59:53] Josiah: Cul-de-sac?
[00:59:53] Tim: I can’t remember what it is.
[00:59:54] No. Cul-de-sac. Yeah. A, a plot cul-de-sac. Mm-hmm. It’s like, “Hey, where does it go?” Nowhere. Um, it’s just time spent to fill a story. So I didn’t like those things about it. So I would give the book a 6.5 because I, I really do like the concept, but I think the book was too long, I think it meandered too much, and it had too much story with v- so little payoff.
[01:00:23] Hearing the end of it, I, I was bothered by the ending. For me, I didn’t mind, I didn’t mind a murder mystery, but I, I do mind a murder mystery that’s not a murder. It’s like, oh, oh, it’s just natural death, or it, they took their own life, or they just, actually they just fell off of something. You know, it’s just…
[01:00:43] Okay, that’s like- They fell off of something. So what’s the point- Yeah … of the whole story? I, I lose it there. All that being said, I loved the film. Um, I would give the film a nine or a 9.5. I th- I thought it was awesome. I, I cried at several places, and I’m not a crier at movies. Mm. I do cry in other situations, but movies don’t usually get quite that much from me, but I did.
[01:01:14] I had, I had to find the napkins that we stuff, you know, we’ve talked about that before. I had to find the napkins- 14 napkins … so that, so I could cry, uh, wipe away the tears, ’cause it was just so moving for me. So I th- I really applaud the filmmakers, and they did such a good job, and I loved the things they changed.
[01:01:39] I loved the parts they kept. Um, and, you know, the names of the sheep were a little more memorable to me in the film than in the book.
[01:01:49] Josiah: Yeah,
[01:01:49] Tim: d- Uh, even though you hear them over and over in the
[01:01:51] Josiah: book. Did we talk about Lily, the significance of Lily?
[01:01:55] Tim: No, we never did. I like the fact that Lily, the name of the daughter, or is, or- A wife
[01:02:02] the name of the, the wife. The
[01:02:04] Josiah: late wife. Mm-hmm.
[01:02:06] Tim: The late wife is the name of the sheep, and the reason he called her that is- Mm … because he admired her so much.
[01:02:14] Josiah: You know
[01:02:14] Tim: what? This wasn’t a-
[01:02:16] Josiah: And, and let us add too, we didn’t talk about the winter lamb ’cause it has to do with some theming, but it’s, it’s not…
[01:02:23] It’s a subplot. It’s, it’s, it’s good. Yeah. But the winter lamb is added in the movie where you don’t name a winter lamb because no one likes a winter lamb, which is that something from lamb lore? There’s something wrong with them. And so Sebastian’s actually a winter lamb. That’s a secret. But the young winter lamb, they accept the winter lamb at the end as part of the sheep- Mm-hmm
[01:02:48] growing up, and they name it George. And so then little George is living alongside Lily, and it does make me think about how we’re all, so many of us are named after people, whether it’s people from the Bible, our grandparents, stuff like that, and how that legacy is passed down. And hopefully we bring with it- Mm-hmm
[01:03:08] the legacy of the love that they also passed down.
[01:03:11] Tim: Yeah. ‘Cause people are real and they’re, they’re not always great, but we hope that what we pass down is the best parts of who we are, um, for sure. So I would g- I would give the film a nine or a 9.5. I really loved it. It was very enjoyable. I was, I was very surprised, um, and I was glad that I’d invited a group of people to go with me to see it.
[01:03:35] Donna: So mine is short. You all have said a lot of the things. How often do all four of us- Agree. I think less than- More so recently … less than half. I mean, we have, we have a little more recently, that’s true. But you’ve, you’ve said a lot of points that I could make and I don’t need to repeat. Uh, one thing I differ with you on is I, I did not like the book.
[01:04:01] It did not … I could not stay with the book. I, I was so lost and so determined that I was going to listen to the book, but I just kept thinking, “Why? How much longer?” When is it
[01:04:16] Tim: gonna end?
[01:04:16] Donna: I’m so lost in all these sheep. I don’t know who any of them are, and I … And part of that’s me. That’s part of just my-
[01:04:25] Tim: Maple, Mobile, M- Mal- whatever
[01:04:27] Donna: yeah, um-
[01:04:28] Tim: Mal- something …
[01:04:29] Donna: it, it’s part of my-
[01:04:30] Rebekah: Melmoth.
[01:04:32] Tim: Melmoth.
[01:04:33] Donna: It’s part of my, um-
[01:04:35] Rebekah: Moth. It was very, very specific. Melmoth, Dad. Sorry, go ahead, Mom.
[01:04:39] Donna: Yeah. It, it’s just part of … I just don’t focus like that, and so when you get deep in the details, I either am gonna be intrigued and want to listen to you again, or I’m gonna say, “Oh, Lord Jesus, I don’t ever want to see this book again.”
[01:04:56] I tend to be the second part of that for this book. I, I would give it, I don’t know, 4.5 or 5. You guys were so generous to it. And when it got to the end and then he killed himself, and then the religious woman is trying to get him to know Jesus decides she’ll kill him with a s- spade ’cause … Ugh, disgust.
[01:05:20] Anyway, we’ll get past that. I’m so thankful I’m done talking about that book. Movie, I mean, it was polar oppos- opposite. Easily nine for me. It was … It hit all the things I like about movies. It was visually attractive. It was pretty. It was, um, creative. I thought the what, how they, they made the sheep to look like actual sheep breeds, but they were varied and, and lovely.
[01:05:52] Um, so-
[01:05:53] Tim: They said they wanted to be, they wanted them to be sheep, so they don’t- Sure … stand on their hind legs.
[01:05:59] Donna: Yeah, yeah.
[01:05:59] Tim: You know, they don’t do non-sheep things. Yeah. They were very intentional about that.
[01:06:04] Donna: Um, but it … But I, I, uh, I laughed, I cried, I was moved. Um, again, I s- I made a comment about the, the God conversation, and how easily I’ve been bugging Dad to use that in a sermon illustration and, and make that, use that as a picture of how we see, we can see God so differently.
[01:06:33] And some of the things are spot on, and some of them are so far off the mark. And- And
[01:06:38] Tim: easily misunderstood.
[01:06:42] Donna: I, I felt like I didn’t see Elliot as the killer. I did not see that coming, and I like to be surprised. Um, I know sometimes Josiah and Josh will both tend to kind of figure things out a little faster, and sometimes I can kind of predict what’s gonna happen, but I’m not real great at it.
[01:07:05] But in this situation- I’m
[01:07:06] Tim: sure my son-in-law knew who the killer was within the first 10 minutes.
[01:07:10] Donna: Mm.
[01:07:10] Rebekah: If you think he listened to this with me, you’re crazy.
[01:07:13] Tim: No, not the book, the film
[01:07:17] Rebekah: Oh, he was snoring by 10 minutes in because of the jet lag, so we’ll both go watch it again.
[01:07:22] Donna: Uh, so anyway, that’s, that’s my, that’s my take on it.
[01:07:26] It was wonderful, and I’m, I’m, uh, I’m really glad we did it. Um, I’ll watch it again. Um, and it was… A- and I can recommend it to people. There’s a lot of things, there’s a lot of things I see that, you know, I try to kinda gauge who I’m talking to when I recommend, but this is something I can recommend to anybody.
[01:07:49] Uh, it, it works.
[01:07:52] Rebekah: Well, I hope that you have enjoyed this episode, dear, dear reader. Um, if you enjoyed it, you should leave us a review, ’cause that’s stinking cool when you do that, and it helps us out a ton. Leave us a review. You can also support us on Patreon if you love what we are doing, and you should follow us on social.
[01:08:12] We are @bookishbetterpod everywhere. Are we? We are. And, uh, until next time- Bye … I don’t… Does anybody have a… Bye.
[01:08:26] Oh,
[01:08:27] Donna: Lord.
[01:08:32] Josiah: Yes! No quarters, no underwear. Ugh.
[01:08:38] Rebekah: You aren’t washing your underwear?