S04E01 — The Silence Of The Lambs

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SPOILER ALERT: This episode and transcript below contains major spoilers for The Silence Of The Lambs

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Featuring hosts Timothy Haynes, Donna Haynes, Rebekah Edwards, and T. Josiah Haynes.

Alright baby listeners… our dad refused to record this episode, so naturally Josiah stole his face and took his place.

This week we’re talking about The Silence of the Lambs, one of the few adaptations that made us say, “Wait… the movie might actually be better.” We unpack Anthony Hopkins’ legendary performance, why Clarice Starling is an absolute powerhouse, and how this story somehow convinces you to root for a cannibal without ever making you forget he’s a monster.

It’s creepy, it’s brilliant, it’s surprisingly funny, and yes… we somehow end up talking about moths way longer than anyone should

Final Verdicts

If you haven’t listened to the episode yet, we recommend waiting to read our verdicts. (But you’re probably grown, so do what you want!)

The Silence of the Lambs is one of the rare adaptations where an already excellent novel becomes an even stronger film, preserving nearly everything that made the story unforgettable while sharpening its tension and cinematic impact.

Donna: The film was better.
– Book Score: 9/10
– Film Score: 9.5/10

Rebekah: The film was better.
– Book Score: 7.5/10
– Film Score: 9.5/10

Josiah: The film was better.
– Book Score: 9/10
– Film Score 9.5/10

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Full Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Josiah: Do you remember that episode of The Office that aired after the Super Bowl one year where it was, like, stress management or stress relief or something like that? 

[00:00:10] Rebekah: Yeah. Uh, not off the top of my head, no. 

[00:00:13] Josiah: And it opens with the big fire scene. Dwight starts a fire- Oh, yeah, yeah … and everyone’s running around.

[00:00:18] Yes. And then later in the episode, they have a dummy there. And they’re practicing- Oh, my God … CPR on it. 

[00:00:28] Rebekah: Um, yeah. 

[00:00:29] Josiah: And Dwight Schrute, uh- Cuts off his head 

[00:00:35] Rebekah: Where is this going?

[00:00:41] I- What is happening right now? 

[00:00:45] Josiah: I’m Hannibal. 

[00:00:48] Rebekah: Oh. 

[00:00:50] Josiah: I have this face on. 

[00:00:52] Rebekah: Oh, okay. You’re doing great. 

[00:00:55] Josiah: Thanks. 

[00:00:55] Rebekah: You’re doing wonderful. Oh, wow. I loved 

[00:00:57] Josiah: that so much. I was doing an impression of Dwight Schrute doing an impression of Hannibal Lecter, but with the props that I had available

[00:01:17] Rebekah: Listeners, this is The Book is Better, which you know ’cause you, like, tapped on this from somewhere, and, uh, we’re gonna be talking about- Mm … something a little interesting today. You might notice that one of our podcasters is missing. Mm-hmm. That’s because we killed him and ate his face, and he’s not here, and- No, 

[00:01:37] Josiah: I’m wearing his face

[00:01:39] it’s really sad. 

[00:01:39] Rebekah: Oh. Oh, you kinda do look like him. Okay, good job. All right. Well, that was a joke. We didn’t eat anybody’s face. Mm-hmm. And actually, our dad is still alive and refuses to do this episode, so I traveled, and I’m sitting in his seat. Josiah took his face, I took his seat- Mm. Mm … and we kicked him out of the state, and he had to leave.

[00:01:58] Mm-hmm. And so now we’re going to be talking- And Mom is… 

[00:02:00] Josiah: Mom switched with you- This is Mom is- … so she’s at your place. 

[00:02:03] Rebekah: No. No, that’s- She’s just there. She’s just where she is. Wow. Um, so we’re talking about The Silence of the Lambs today. Woo-hoo. Yes. Is 

[00:02:12] Josiah: Dad on a missions trip? Are we saying that? He 

[00:02:14] Rebekah: is. He’s on a missions trip somewhere.

[00:02:16] Mm-hmm, he’s in 

[00:02:17] Josiah: Peoria- 

[00:02:17] Donna: Illinois? … Illinois. 

[00:02:19] Josiah: So track him down, kill him, take his face. Well, 

[00:02:23] Rebekah: I, I mean, he’s already- He’s- … had that happen, so … 

[00:02:25] Josiah: he’s at 413 Peoria Avenue. 

[00:02:29] Donna: Main Street, Peoria. 

[00:02:32] Rebekah: Exactly. 

[00:02:33] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:33] Rebekah: Um, we are talking about Silence of the Lambs, and a content warning, I- if you live under a rock and you don’t know what Silence of the Lambs is, this is not an episode appropriate for the little children, because not only did our dad refuse to do this episode, our editor also refused to do this episode.

[00:02:53] And so we’re kicking it back to our executive producer, Josh. Wow. Thanks, babe. You’re killing it. 

[00:02:58] Josiah: Thanks, babe. 

[00:02:59] Rebekah: But not killing it like Hannibal, ’cause that’d be different. That’s like a different type of killing it. Um- Yeah. Eventually 

[00:03:06] Josiah: you’ll stop- So 

[00:03:08] Rebekah: anyway … with the puns. You know. No, probably not. I don’t, maybe not.

[00:03:09] I think that this episode is just gonna be a lot of that. So, uh, yeah, this is not an episode I would watch or listen to with littles around. We get into some dark stuff. Mm-hmm. We are gonna spoil the Silence of the Lambs. We will probably also spoil content from the other films and books in this series.

[00:03:27] So- Which are 

[00:03:27] Josiah: not as good, so you might as well not even bother … 

[00:03:29] Rebekah: yeah, this is the best, for sure. Well- Mm-hmm … 

[00:03:35] Josiah: it’s my favorite … Red Dragon the book is, is pretty 

[00:03:36] Rebekah: good. I haven’t read the other books- Hmm … but Red Dragon the film is my favorite. 

[00:03:40] Josiah: Oh, interesting. Okay. 

[00:03:42] Rebekah: I know. I know, I’m weird. Oh. That was a pretty low…

[00:03:45] Well, I think Hannibal… Anyway, we’ll get into it. All right. So today’s fun fact. Since Dad ducked out on this one, and we’re getting into some dark stuff later, let’s talk about something lovely. What is your favorite thing about Dad that you love? I love so many things about my dad. There’s much, much to love.

[00:04:02] Uh, not least of which is that he’s not a cannibal. But many other things in addition to that that I love about him. Mm-hmm. Um, I think we’re very much alike, and we joke about that a lot, but I think one of my favorite, like, little things about Dad, ’cause he loves me well, he’s a good dad, he’s supportive, he’s my ch- my champion and cheerleader and all that stuff, but- I love that he cares about the little things that I find so interesting, the same way I do.

[00:04:28] Mm. So we lived, like, in Smyrna outside of Nashville at one point. Mm-hmm. And I remember it was the first time I’d seen a stoplight where the red light in this one stoplight had a big blinking white- Mm … circle around it. And the first time I moved there, internally, I didn’t say it out to anybody else ’cause I knew no one else would care, internally I was like, “That’s so interesting.

[00:04:49] I bet you that that light is in the direct line of the sun.” Mm-hmm. “And so at certain times of day, that, like, white flashing light helps you for sure know that it’s the red light that’s on so that you don’t accidentally run it.” I’d never said it to anybody, and then the first time Mom and Dad visited us at that apartment, Dad was in the front seat, and we got to that stoplight and he saw it, and he was like, “Oh, wow, isn’t it cool that that, like, circle is blinking around it?

[00:05:17] I bet it’s for when the sunlight is directly on this thing.” And so I just remember that as, like, this da- I, we lived there in, like, 2011. Mm. I remember that as this fun little thing that’s like, just kinda the way that Dad and I interact is, like, we love talking about things that are details that other people just don’t care about.

[00:05:35] Josiah: Yeah. Timmy, Timmy the dad, he’s quite, um, a servant-minded person. Uh, you get a lot of- Mm … really healthy masculinity from this man. Mm. Full of compassion, uh, and sternness, full of, uh, love for everyone, and also- Mm … uh, the, the love enough to correct- Uh, such a servant. I don’t e- I don’t really, I don’t know if I wanna encourage his most serving tendencies.

[00:06:18] But he’ll, he’ll come to my apartment and, uh, if he stays over, my- … you know, bathtub will be cleaned mysteriously- … while he’s there. He, he will break his back to help his fellow man- Mm … especially his family and his close friends, but I have seen him bend over backwards to help some of the hardest to love people that I’ve ever met.

[00:06:48] Donna: Uh, so I live a charmed life. I don’t even know how to really put into words how this all happened, and we were just telling somebody recently, we’re together despite our own craziness because when we met, we were both messes of people. But God just did this crazy thing and, and I, I have to attribute it to him, um, ’cause we certainly didn’t know what we were doing.

[00:07:17] But Tim will tell people all he ever wanted as a teenager, his goals in life, and these honestly, these weren’t my goals as a teenager. I don’t even know if I had many goals as a teenager. But his goals in life as a teenager was to be a husband and a father, and other things would just fall in behind that.

[00:07:39] And, um, he’s, he’s amazing. I wish he could see himself like we see him, but then maybe, you know, maybe he’s not supposed to. Maybe that’s not how we’re supposed to see ourselves. I don’t know. Um, but I love him, and I can’t… I have to be careful what area I go down here because I’ll start crying, and I don’t wanna do that on the podcast.

[00:08:01] It’s not worth it- I’ve probably done that enough … ‘

[00:08:03] Josiah: cause I mean, Dad won’t even listen to this unless we make him. 

[00:08:06] Rebekah: We might make him listen to this section, and then he’s like- … “Okay, turn it off. Turn it off.” 

[00:08:10] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:08:11] Rebekah: Well, completely changing gears from that, Mom, do you wanna tell us what The Silence of the Lambs- Oh, 

[00:08:18] Donna: my

[00:08:19] is all 

[00:08:19] Rebekah: about? 

[00:08:20] Donna: Certainly. In arguably the greatest psychological drama horror thriller in movie history, The Silence of the Lambs follows FBI agent-in-training Clarice Starling as she tries to access some helpful information for another case from Dr. Hannibal Lecter, who’s imprisoned for life after several vicious acts of cannibalism.

[00:08:52] Starling’s soon-to-be boss, Special Agent Jack Crawford, believes she has what it takes to get into Lecter’s head. Um, the FBI is in pursuit of a serial killer named Buffalo Bill… It’s so creepy, uh, but it’s great. Who is suspected to have some past connection to Hannibal, and possibly, am I thinking maybe even a patient?

[00:09:16] Did I remember that right? 

[00:09:18] Rebekah: Yes. 

[00:09:18] Donna: Okay. Good. Um, Clarice plays some mental hopscotch all the way through the film as she simultaneously is fascinated to understand or comprehend Lecter’s mind, and horrified as he drags her through her own dark past. 

[00:09:36] Rebekah: Da, da, 

[00:09:37] Donna: da. Da, da, da. 

[00:09:38] Rebekah: Okay, so before we get into differences, of which there are not many- Mm-hmm

[00:09:43] uh, what did we like about how they adapted this book to the film? 

[00:09:47] Donna: They’re so much alike. Like you said, there’s not a bunch of differences, but I like the fact that they kept Lecter creepy. They captured the intellectual part of him so he doesn’t just come across as a crazy killer. 

[00:10:03] Rebekah: Yeah. 

[00:10:05] Donna: That, that draws you to him, to the point almost for me where you want to like him.

[00:10:12] Like, you want to- Yep. Agreed … get, get in his head, or you really wanna understand. And for me, that’s really import- That’s one of the most important things for me, is seeing how people think. I 

[00:10:25] Rebekah: think I liked that both of the works, because the story is so similar, the first time I saw it, which I mean, it’s been, you know, a while, um, the first time I saw it, I don’t think I knew what was gonna happen, and I, I don’t think there’s a lot of films that I see anytime recently where I feel like that’s the case.

[00:10:46] In this way, I mean, like, like, there’s not just one antagonist, and like, Lecter, like you said, is not an antagonist. He’s kind of a protagonist in a lot of it- Yeah … but he’s really evil, but he’s really complex. And I think I loved that this story just in general, the way it took you through it wasn’t just, it wasn’t like solving a murder mystery.

[00:11:09] It wasn’t- Mm-hmm … like, “Oh, there’s this bad serial killer and we have to hunt him down.” It felt like at any given point I didn’t know who was gonna be the bad guy and how, and I just really liked that. I liked how twisty it felt. Mm-hmm. So for me, that was probably my favorite part. Um, I also like the character Clarice Starling.

[00:11:27] I think that she’s interesting. She’s a woman in a job that was, um, at the time especially, very male-centered. And you know, sometimes that can come off in a frustrating or annoying way in film, but I think that she pulled it off. In the book too, her character’s well-written. It doesn’t feel annoying or like she’s trying to step out of, um, who she is to try and prove that she can keep up with the men.

[00:11:54] It doesn’t feel like that at all. It feels like she’s a strong woman and has a really like clear purpose, and I like that she plays like a pivotal role. And the, in the book- Mm-hmm … which you don’t actually see in the film, this is slightly off, but it’s not written anywhere else I don’t think. Uh, i- in the book she specifically mentions to Jack Crawford, at least at one point, that as a woman she understands what the main like victim of Buffalo Bill that’s alive throughout the, the movie, that she understands what Catherine is going through as a woman in a way that- Mm

[00:12:29] Jack couldn’t. And I just, I don’t know, I appreciated that. She was good portrayal of a strong woman with good purpose that didn’t try to be a man. 

[00:12:39] Donna: She wasn’t affected by the fact that the people in authority over her were males. Mm. And she didn’t seem like she cowered down to them. I didn’t feel like she was ever like, she was e- you know like, “Oh, I’m just a girl.”

[00:12:51] She was not that. That was not her character at all. But she also could respect the fact that Agent Crawford knew more. He had more experience. He had more whatever. And, and I felt like it was a, a s- a good, strong female. I agree with you. 

[00:13:08] Josiah: I appreciated that the portrayal of Jame Gumb, Buffalo Bill, was just as disturbing in the film as in the book.

[00:13:17] I mean, I guess probably more just ’cause it was so visual. Uh, but I feel like I was reading the book and I thought, “Yeah, this…” ‘Cause you get to see from his perspective in certain chapters, and I was like- Mm-hmm … “Yeah, that is exactly what the film…” Yeah, the, the film didn’t invent very much. Mm. It took what was disturbing- Yeah

[00:13:39] in the book and made it disturbing in the film. 

[00:13:42] Rebekah: All right. Let’s talk about- Ooh … our changes. I- Mm-hmm … wanna spend most of the time for this part just on characters, ’cause I think that that was really interesting. Mom found a lot of really interesting stuff about casting and those kinds of things that we’ll just kinda talk about as we talk about- Mm-hmm

[00:13:56] the main characters. So first, obviously, Hannibal Lecter. If you think about this film and don’t think Hannibal Lecter, somebody did something wrong. Mm-hmm. Uh, he in the book is described as wiry and small in stature, but as you’ve seen, if you’ve seen the film, um, obviously Anthony Hopkins is not either of those things.

[00:14:17] Uh, he’s pretty- Yeah … stocky. He seems like someone who could easily overpower another person. Mm-hmm. Um, even a man, you know, a big guy. And so I thought that was really interesting. Other than that, he is pretty similar to in the book. 

[00:14:32] Josiah: I read a long time ago about how Hopkins only appeared on screen for, like, 15 or 16 minutes, and he was nominated and won, uh, a Best Actor Oscar.

[00:14:46] So he is… He holds the record for the s- the least amount of screen time for a Best Actor or Best Actress winner. 

[00:14:58] Rebekah: Is that still the record right now? 

[00:15:00] Josiah: It is still the record, mm-hmm. 

[00:15:01] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. Wow. 

[00:15:02] Josiah: Well, it’s only 15 or 16 minutes. I, I think that Hopkins being nominated for Lead Actor is a little bit, uh, deceitful.

[00:15:13] He’s, he’s kinda the lead actor. He is the second most important character in the film. And the first most important is a female, so I guess I understand lead actor. Mm. But he’s only on screen for 16 minutes or so. 

[00:15:32] Donna: Uh, the role of Hannibal Lecter was also fir- was first offered to Sean Connery, which I cannot see in any way, shape, or form Sean Connery being Hannibal Lecter, but maybe that’s just- Hmm

[00:15:48] because I have a perception of, of- I can see it … Hopkins. Um, but he turned it down. Uh, Anthony Hopkins was approached because he had played Dr. Frederick Treves. Treves? Um, I don’t know the right- Might be Treves. 

[00:16:03] Josiah: I don’t know. 

[00:16:04] Donna: Treves in- Uh, it’s been, it’s been years … uh, yeah, in The Elephant Man in 1980. Uh, Demme, the director, said that Lecter, like Dr.

[00:16:14] Treves, was a good man too, but the difference was Lecter was trapped in an insane mind, which I thought that was an interesting way to look at it. Um, when- Yeah … when Hopkins saw the script, they sent him a script, and they told him it was on its way. Script was The Silence of the Lambs, and he asked was it a children’s book It’s not a children’s book.

[00:16:39] Uh, but after he read the first 10 pages, he said, uh, this was the greatest, this is the greatest part he’d ever read for. So I thought that was pretty cool. Um- 

[00:16:51] Rebekah: He’s a fantastic actor, and I’ve seen him in other things. Mm-hmm. However, it’s so hard for me to divorce him from Hannibal. Like, I see him- Hmm … and I see Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter.

[00:17:02] Yeah. Anthony Hopkins- I don’t know … is that person. I don’t know. 

[00:17:05] Josiah: Is he a good actor? What is the only other time that, uh, that Anthony Hopkins won an acting Oscar? You will not know. 

[00:17:17] Rebekah: I do not know. Correct. I don’t know. 

[00:17:20] Josiah: It is for The Father in 2020, so it was a bad year for films. It was, like, the only Oscar ceremony that they did not end with announcing Best Picture, because Chadwick Boseman was nominated for Best Lead Actor, and everyone expected him to win, and he had just died.

[00:17:42] Oh. And they expected to end the ceremony with celebrating Chadwick Boseman. So instead, the person gets up on stage, and for the final award of the night, they announce that Anthony Hopkins has won Best Actor in a Leading Role. Ah. And he is not there at the ceremony, so they just go to credits. 

[00:18:05] Rebekah: That is cringy.

[00:18:07] That’s super cringy. Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:09] Josiah: I guess I liked him in the first season of Westworld. He was, like, the creepy mastermind secretly behind it all. I have a piece of trivia. I told someone today that we were gonna record this episode tonight over at the factory, and Collier said that he read, and I didn’t confirm this, ’cause I just wanted to go off Collier’s word to give him full credit- Mm-hmm

[00:18:32] that Anthony Hopkins based his voice, his accent, off of- Mm-hmm … HAL 9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

[00:18:41] Donna: Yes, I read that. Nice. Nice. 

[00:18:42] Rebekah: I 

[00:18:43] Donna: did not include it in our notes, but I did read that. 

[00:18:45] Rebekah: Wow. 

[00:18:46] Josiah: Okay. Thank you, Collier. 

[00:18:47] Rebekah: Good job, friend. 

[00:18:48] Josiah: I don’t think that he was a good actor in this film. Mm-hmm. I think that the character was so well-written that it would’ve taken a crazy person to mess it up.

[00:19:03] Now, the voice was a good choice. Yeah. Okay, just imagine the scene where he’s beating up the cop in the, in the cell. It, that’s- Hmm … just so unnat… It makes me cringe to watch it. He’s like, “Uh.” Eh But 

[00:19:17] Rebekah: I feel like that was intentional … 

[00:19:19] Josiah: is shower. I mean, it kinda works because he seems inhuman 

[00:19:23] Rebekah: I love his choice not to blink often.

[00:19:27] Yes. I think he was inspired by something else. That’s good. We looked this up. 

[00:19:30] Donna: Yeah. Yes. 

[00:19:31] Rebekah: But I think that that also, I mean, you know, choosing to blink less, does that make you a great actor? Perhaps not. However, I do think that it was incredibly compelling, and the first time Josh mentioned that to me- Mm-hmm

[00:19:43] and then we went back and saw this, I’ve seen this movie so many times. I know. I thought it was just such a good element to add because it, it added to that intrigue of his psychiatry work- Yeah … and the idea that he’s just constantly looking- Mm … at you. Mm-hmm. And he’s constantly perceiving more than anyone around him perceives.

[00:20:04] Mm-hmm. You know- I do also enjoy, uh, that they made him, like, be able to smell in almost a supernatural way. He could- Mm-hmm … he could smell things that other people just had never thought to be able to smell, especially from across the room or whatever, and they made him feel kind of supernatural in that way too- Mm-hmm

[00:20:21] even though it’s not a supernatural film. 

[00:20:24] Josiah: I want, I think that it’s a, it’s a common thing when you’re film acting that you’re not supposed to blink. Uh, but boy, oh boy, are his eyes wide open. They’re always mm-hmm. 

[00:20:36] Rebekah: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:20:36] Josiah: Yeah. I’m obvious- Yes … ’cause usually you j- you don’t wanna make it seem like you’re not blinking, but he makes it like I am a newt.

[00:20:45] Rebekah: Yes, for sure 

[00:20:47] Josiah: What about Clarice Starling? She was cast as somewhat less traditionally attractive than she is described in the book. Arguably, the film limits her emotional processing on screen, which I think works to the film’s benefit. Yeah. Uh, internal struggles weren’t as much focused on her father- Mm-hmm

[00:21:11] in the book as in the film. So that’s, that’s a slight change where, 

[00:21:16] Rebekah: uh- I remember she remembered her mom 

[00:21:18] Josiah: in the book a few times … her mom was alive in the book longer. But the mom- Yeah … couldn’t take care of her, so she still was sent off to her aunt’s where the lambs were screaming. I, sometimes I forget about Clarice Starling’s character in the movie.

[00:21:33] Mm. You know, you remember a lot of Hannibal Lecter and Buffalo Bill. But I was reading the book- Mm … I was listening to the book and thinking, “Okay, yeah, this is a cool character.” I see how in a man’s world, Mm … it works to Clarice and Hannibal’s benefit that Hannibal seems to be the only man who, who Clarice- Yeah

[00:21:56] kind of feels safe around, who’s willing to help Clarice instead of try and keep her down as the woman she is. And so it makes you like Hannibal more, and it makes you cheer for Clarice. And Jodie Foster, that innocent ingenue face just ramps it up to 11. 

[00:22:18] Donna: I found this interesting, and you noted this, that, uh, she M- she’s less traditionally attractive.

[00:22:27] Um, one, I loved her hair in the film. Her hair was always neat, and so it looked very thick, but it always was in beautiful condition. Like, it, I thought that was really important for her role. Um, but the role was first offered to Michelle Pfeiffer. She worked with director Demme on Married to the Mob, and so…

[00:22:49] And I’m not familiar with that film. But she, Pfeiffer refused it because she said she was nervous about the subject matter. 

[00:22:57] Josiah: Yep. 

[00:22:58] Donna: So she went on to- Understandable … do some other stuff. It was awful. Uh, sorry. Sorry, Michelle. Um, then they went- 

[00:23:05] Rebekah: Yes, Michelle Pfeiffer, when you hear this podcast episode, you better not get mad at us.

[00:23:08] Donna: That’s right. Shelley Duvall, she didn’t get over it, and then she went and died. Not because of this, obviously. I would… Oh, God. Oh, Nina, don’t even do that. I was going down a dark road there. Hang on. Okay. Um, but after, after that, he approached Meg Ryan, who said the theme was too gruesome, and she wasn’t interested in it either.

[00:23:33] Um- Can you 

[00:23:33] Rebekah: imagine Meg Ryan of You’ve Got Mail playing Clarice Starling? Kind of, yeah. 

[00:23:38] Donna: You could… Oh, no. It, it wouldn’t be as good a movie. It would be weird. 

[00:23:41] Josiah: But I could imagine it. 

[00:23:42] Donna: Demme was not actually that wild about Jodie Foster. He did not think she could pull the role off. But she had read the book and had this crazy passion to play this character.

[00:23:55] Like, she went after the character. And he, he gave in. 

[00:23:59] Rebekah: I think, uh, it’s interesting that her role as Clarice Starling was such a memorable one- Mm-hmm … because Jodie Foster was also asked to reprise that role when the Hannibal sequel was released, but she turned it down. The reason she turned it down is, we told you there’d be spoilers, a spoiler for Hannibal.

[00:24:21] In the book at the end, Clarice and Hannibal, like, move in together and become… I, it’s unclear if they’re lovers or something different and maybe darker, but Foster said that Starling would have never fallen under Lecter’s spell, and so she did not- Mm-hmm … reprise her role. Then, after they had already cast someone else, Julianne Moore, who played in Hannibal, they then had rewritten the script in a way that would have been more acceptable to Jodie Foster because they took out- Mm-hmm

[00:24:54] them running off together. But they’d already cast Julianne Moore, and so it was too late. So- Yeah … I think that’s interesting. We’ll talk in a little bit about how the movies and the books were released in such an odd kind of way. And in this case, by the time that she played in Silence of the Lambs, I think, yeah, Hannibal would not have come out…

[00:25:15] Hannibal came out eight years after Silence of the Lambs was released. And so- Hmm … there’s no way that Jodie- Yeah … Foster could have known, like, where the story went, ’cause there literally weren’t more books in the series at that point, so. And I always wonder, too, if the way that the author saw her portray Clarice Starling painted how he ended up writing Clarice’s story as he- Yeah

[00:25:40] continued the series. Because honestly, they have chemistry. In the film, I think that they have a lot of chemistry in this very strange way. 

[00:25:49] Josiah: But it’s not, ugh, but the, the chemistry is, is a misdirect, and I think you’re right that the author did that. I think the author is stupid and wrong to have done that.

[00:26:02] Yeah. I think he fell for a trick that the filmmaker successfully put on that there is sexual tension between Clarice and Hannibal, not because either one of them would I- ever be interested in one another. Mm-hmm. But because she is so vulnerable around him, and that’s what draws him to her. And the reason that, you, you know, you can talk about why does Clarice let herself be vulnerable to him.

[00:26:31] I think it’s a mixture of she needs to do anything to get a leg up in this man’s world. At the same time, it’s almost like she feels- Mm-hmm … safe with Hannibal compared to other men who are always eyeing her up and down. 

[00:26:45] Rebekah: Well, and Hannibal treats her in a more polite way than so many of those other men, even though- 

[00:26:51] Donna: Mm-hmm

[00:26:52] Rebekah: he is such a, a horrible creature. 

[00:26:55] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:26:55] Rebekah: It’s not the same. 

[00:26:56] Donna: They make a big deal about you’re gonna miss this exam, and it’s gonna put you back six months, and- Mm-hmm … they mention that in the film. Recycling. But I felt… Recycling. But I felt like in the book it was a bigger deal that she is a woman in a man’s world, and she wasn’t afraid of that.

[00:27:16] She wanted to conquer that. But would I have caught it in the film if I hadn’t read the book? Would I have noticed? Thing about her, you know, you’ll lose six months and, and her friend keeps after her, and Crawford’s like, you know, would he do this for her? Would he help her? That kind of thing. I don’t know.

[00:27:31] I do think their chemistry is interesting, and I think at one point, yeah, after he, after he escapes, uh, she’s like, she was s- and I can’t remember now what the setting was, but they were like, “You know, Starling, you have to be careful,” basically. And she’s like, “He won’t.” 

[00:27:47] Rebekah: It’s after he escapes. 

[00:27:48] Donna: Yeah. They- And she’s like, “He won’t come after me.

[00:27:50] I’m 

[00:27:51] Rebekah: not-” She’s talking to her friend. 

[00:27:52] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:52] Rebekah: Like, at school, and the friend is like, “Aren’t you worried?” or something. And she said- 

[00:27:57] Donna: Yeah … “

[00:27:57] Rebekah: I can’t describe it, but he,” like, “no, he wouldn’t come after me. He would consider that rude.” 

[00:28:03] Donna: That’s 

[00:28:04] Rebekah: it. You understand? Yeah. She tells Jack Crawford in the book, I 

[00:28:06] Donna: think. 

[00:28:06] Josiah: Yeah.

[00:28:06] Yeah. 

[00:28:07] Donna: Well, speaking of Jack Crawford, he’s our next topic of discussion. Um, he’s very, very similar, but there is a book subplot about his wife’s disease and death that they don’t touch in the movie. I guess I could see what they were doing with it in the book. Like, I got it, that it was just a subplot there, and maybe it lended to his character a little bit, but I’m not sure what the payoff was.

[00:28:35] Like- 

[00:28:36] Josiah: Was the payoff that he- Ugh … let Clarice do some stuff that he might have done himself? Like, in, after the- I could see that … halfway point in the book Jack was letting her follow up on the early victim. Well, what I think it did- Mm-hmm … partly was make Jack and Clarice’s relationship less romantic possibility.

[00:29:01] ‘Cause in the book- Mm-hmm, yeah … once you learn that Jack has a wife, like I don’t think, I never thought that there was a chance they would get together. But in the movie constantly it felt like- 

[00:29:13] Donna: Yeah … 

[00:29:14] Josiah: Clarice was interested in sort of a daddy figure. Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:18] Donna: Yeah. Yes. 

[00:29:20] Rebekah: I wonder too if part of it came from Red Dragon.

[00:29:24] I haven’t read Red Dragon, but Jack Crawford was a pretty major character- Mm-hmm … in that as well. And so he was grooming, um, I can’t remember his name right now off the top of my head. Will. But yes, he was grooming Will to be his replacement. And so I wonder if there’s something in Red Dragon where his wife like gets sick and Jack has to start taking care of her there.

[00:29:46] And so I wonder in this, because it’s so odd and we’ll talk about it, that this is a technically a sequel even though for most people it feels like the first story. Um, I wonder if it’s like a continuation of Jack Crawford constantly trying to seek out someone who sticks out to him as someone who could replace- Hmm

[00:30:02] his role. 

[00:30:03] Josiah: I, I do think his description was slightly different in the book. It was almost like in the movie he was the straight-laced, classically attractive 40-something year old. Um, but in the book- Yeah, I would say … it’s almost like that’s what he used to be like. Mm. And he’s let himself go since his wife got sick.

[00:30:23] And, and- Yeah … may- maybe since Will Graham got Hannibal Lectered, but I think especially since his wife got sick. 

[00:30:30] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:31] Josiah: But, you know, for this movie- For Jack Crawford, the following actors were considered: Michael Keaton. Honestly, I wouldn’t mind seeing- I, I could d- … Michael Keaton- I could see that … as Hannibal Lecter.

[00:30:44] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:45] Josiah: Oh. Yeah. That, uh, uh, yeah, that would be cool. Same thing with Mickey Rourke. Mickey Rourke is, I know he was less weird ugly now, then- Yeah … but Mickey Rourke would’ve been a great- … disgusting Hannibal Lecter. Yes. I don’t know about Jack Crawford. 

[00:30:59] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:31:01] Josiah: And Kenneth Branagh- 

[00:31:02] Donna: Lord, no … 

[00:31:03] Josiah: as Jack Crawford. 

[00:31:04] Donna: He could, uh, yeah.

[00:31:07] I could see it. 

[00:31:09] Josiah: He, 

[00:31:11] Rebekah: he’s pretty. He’s too pretty. Kenneth is pretty. But why is that a problem? 

[00:31:13] Donna: I don’t, well- 

[00:31:13] Josiah: I feel like Jack Crawf- he didn’t look like a dad yet. Mm. Jack Crawford is Clarice’s father figure in complicated ways. Kenneth Branagh was probably too young, I feel like. 

[00:31:25] Donna: What would- Interesting

[00:31:25] Kenneth Branagh have been like as Bill? 

[00:31:29] Josiah: Hmm. I don’t know. I don’t know. His weirdest role was probably, uh, uh, Kenneth Branagh, in Wild Wild West, he was the spider techno guy. Or do you guys remember him? Yeah, the- Loveless or something. 

[00:31:44] Donna: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I loved that movie. But I was thinking of how he was so prissy.

[00:31:49] I was thinking of how he was so prissy in Harry Potter Chamber of Secrets, and I just was thinking, oh, you know, he could pull off that little prissy act. I think he 

[00:31:58] Josiah: could be, I get, he, I bet he could be Chilton. Kenneth Branagh could’ve been Chilton. 

[00:32:02] Rebekah: Yes. Hmm. 

[00:32:03] Donna: Okay. 

[00:32:04] Rebekah: Okay. Absolutely, yes. Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:06] Donna: Interesting. 

[00:32:08] Rebekah: Okay.

[00:32:08] So kind of a, just a quick trigger warning here on sexual assault for my next comment. If that is a problem, just skip over what I say. Um, after- Mm-hmm … he was cast to play Jack Crawford, Scott Glenn met with John E. Douglas, retired FBI agent and unit chief of the Behavioral Science Unit, which would later become the Behavioral Analysis Unit.

[00:32:29] Analysis. Douglas, author of Mindhunter: Inside the FBI’s Elite Serial Crime Unit- Glenn through the Quantico facility, and he played him recordings made by Lawrence Bittaker and Ray Norris as they raped and tortured a 16-year-old girl. In the Mindhunter book, Douglas said Glenn wept as they listened, and the experience made him change his liberal stance on the death penalty.

[00:32:53] Josiah: My gosh. 

[00:32:54] Rebekah: I have read- Okay … Mindhunter. I own that book. It’s on my bookshelf. I’m not at home, so I can’t show you, but I own that, and I read it when I was considering, like, did I wanna go into more, like, psychology, psychiatry stuff- Mm-hmm … um, like criminal psych. You can tell from reading the book why these people, especially during the boom of serial killing in the ’70s through the ’90s, you get this sense of, like, these men trying so hard to figure out how to prevent these things that were happening because they were just so- Mm-hmm

[00:33:27] depraved in a way- Mm-hmm … that had never been seen before. It is- Mm-hmm … if you have any interest in that, if you’re a big Criminal Minds fan or have any, like, clinical interest in how this works- Mm-hmm … it is a wild read. I probably should read it again. It’s fascinating. 

[00:33:41] Donna: When I s- read into this a little bit, I just thought, “How committed am I to something that I would go through that?”

[00:33:50] Josiah: Like, you would watch the video? 

[00:33:52] Donna: I’m assuming that John Douglas prepared him for what he was gonna listen to. 

[00:33:57] Josiah: Oh, okay. 

[00:33:58] Donna: We see… You know, you see so much stuff on television, on YouTube. You see dramatized stuff, and you see creepy… If you watch scary things or if you watch horror or things like that, you see those things.

[00:34:11] But to be listening to a recording and know this was the actual thing that happened, I don’t know. I mean, I thought that was wild. But it also helped me understand part of, at least, why the movie’s so effective in capturing this world. 

[00:34:28] Rebekah: They intentionally tried to make you feel like you were walking through a day- Mm-hmm

[00:34:35] in the life of these people that worked with the most depraved criminals. 

[00:34:40] Josiah: Well, you know, Buffalo Bill’s final victim, and she survived, was Catherine Martin. Very similar from book to film, I was surprised at how many lines of Catherine’s were ripped straight from the book. 

[00:34:52] Rebekah: Right from the book. 

[00:34:53] Josiah: Mm-hmm. Uh, there was a brief scene of smoking pot with her boyfriend that was excluded from the film.

[00:34:59] Rebekah: She was also in the parking lot and helping, uh, him put something into his truck- Mm-hmm … I believe. But she was walking. She, like, went to her apartment and was walking back to her boyfriend’s apartment that I believe were, like, in the same complex or something. Yes. 

[00:35:12] Josiah: Okay. Mm. 

[00:35:12] Rebekah: Yes. 

[00:35:13] Josiah: Yeah. 

[00:35:13] Donna: This actress is so weird for me.

[00:35:16] I’ve seen her in other parts. I think she did fine with the role she had. I’ve never really seen her and went, “Oh, you know, I need to see more stuff she does,” and that kinda thing. Um- 

[00:35:25] Josiah: Gotcha. You’re saying plus-size actresses are, are not, uh, ever serious actors? 

[00:35:32] Donna: That’s not funny. 

[00:35:32] Josiah: I agree. I agree. 

[00:35:35] Donna: Shut up. There were some other characters in the movie who we really couldn’t come up with a lot of differences because they were almost identical to their character in the book.

[00:35:44] So you got Buffalo Bill or Jame Gumb, um, Dr. Chilton, Senator Ruth Martin, Ardelia Mapp, and Barney. So many things we cover, the differences are so stark book to movie and they’ll change so much- Yeah … about things. Just in this situation, that’s one, two, three, four, five characters. 

[00:36:05] Rebekah: Majorly important to the film.

[00:36:06] Yeah, espe- Especially like Buffalo Bill, Jame- 

[00:36:08] Donna: Yeah. Yes … and Dr. 

[00:36:09] Rebekah: Chilton, I mean. 

[00:36:09] Josiah: I think Dr. Chilton is a little skeevier in the film Setting up- 

[00:36:15] Rebekah: Really … 

[00:36:16] Josiah: that it’s satisfying- Yeah … for the audience that Hannibal is hunting him at the end of the film. 

[00:36:20] Donna: Yeah. And that actor too, he has that, a skeevy look about him.

[00:36:25] Rebekah: Okay, so we have a few plot things, and then I’m excited to talk about this kind of interesting release order stuff. Sure. So mom, why don’t you get us started on these? 

[00:36:35] Donna: There are minor details about how the case unfolds that were slightly changed for the film. Uh, such as there’s a little more mystery around Moffitt’s identity.

[00:36:46] Uh, the- Which was 

[00:36:47] Rebekah: who ended up being the head in the, uh, rental space that Clarice broke into- Yes … and found a head in a jar. 

[00:36:54] Donna: Not the head of something, but the actual head. 

[00:36:56] Rebekah: Yes. 

[00:36:57] Donna: Mm-hmm. Yes. Uh, there was, there were details of the fake deal that was offered by Starling to Lecter. Some order of events were switched around a little bit, and then Lecter’s ability to escape his handcuffs.

[00:37:10] So 

[00:37:11] Rebekah: in- 

[00:37:11] Donna: The handcuff 

[00:37:11] Rebekah: thing was like a long drawn out, he’d been- 

[00:37:13] Donna: Yes … 

[00:37:14] Rebekah: he’d been like creating a handcuff key- 

[00:37:17] Donna: Yeah … 

[00:37:17] Rebekah: for months by that point. 

[00:37:18] Donna: But I do think what they did in the film with it worked. Like, it’s easier to put stuff on paper. 

[00:37:25] Rebekah: Yeah. 

[00:37:26] Josiah: And it being Chilton’s fault. 

[00:37:28] Rebekah: Well, yeah. 

[00:37:29] Josiah: That, that makes it more satisfying that it will eventually be- Yes

[00:37:32] be Chilton’s doom. 

[00:37:34] Rebekah: Another random, but s- it was kind of small, but it threw me off. I wondered why they changed it. Starling’s discovery of the risque photos in the book were photos of Catherine Martin. Mm-hmm. They’re not of the first victim, as in the film, Fredrica, Frederica Bimmel. And- Mm-hmm … in the book, the senator, Catherine’s mother, essentially like is like creeped out by her finding them.

[00:38:00] She denies that they’re relevant and then illegally moves e- like tells a, a law enforcement officer to move evidence. Mm-hmm. Like take the photos and they don’t get- Wow … put into evidence or anything. Yeah. Now, in the film, you actually never see them put into evidence either. So I mean, it’s n- it’s not like they did that part in the film.

[00:38:17] But in the film they use the photos as they are of the first victim, and that first victim, I don’t know, they, they connect it to her knowing, uh, Buffalo Bill in advance, and like having some sort of relationship, briefly at least, even if it was just a friendship. Or no? 

[00:38:36] Josiah: Seemed romantic. 

[00:38:39] Rebekah: Yeah. 

[00:38:40] Josiah: It’s all implied.

[00:38:40] Yeah, yeah. Yes. I, I think, I don’t think, is it … ‘Cause what I got, and it was just an implication, but what I got was that Jame Gumb was taking those pictures. 

[00:38:52] Rebekah: Really? Yeah. In the movie or the book? The movie, yes. The movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Agreed. Mm-hmm. I think it was implied that- 

[00:38:58] Donna: Yeah … 

[00:38:59] Rebekah: he took those. 

[00:39:00] Josiah: And I don’t know if this is why they did it, but it did give me a face to the first victim, which I would not have otherwise had.

[00:39:09] That’s true. It kind of humanized her. Yeah. There’s also, like, more pushback from the FBI higher-ups to take Clarice off the case in the book. That’s barely in the film. Mm. I, I, I remember thinking in the book- Yeah … yeah, it makes sense that Crawford would get pushback for being, like, why are you, why are you putting so much, uh, that re- re- why are you relying so much on a trainee?

[00:39:34] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:35] Josiah: Like, who is this girl? Are you sleeping with her? Mm-hmm. What’s so special about her? 

[00:39:38] Rebekah: Well, and the, the guy, it’s, his name starts with a K, the, Jack Crawford’s boss, that in the book, like, pulls Clarice off the case and it’s- Mm-hmm … he’s very involved. We started watching Hannibal last night, and his character comes back, I assume, in the book.

[00:39:54] We haven’t- Mm … I got, I haven’t gotten to that book yet. His character comes back in the book- Yeah … or in the film, at the beginning of Hannibal- Mm-hmm. Okay … and he’s the one rebuking Clarice, and it seems like he is an ongoing thorn in her side- Mm … in the books that she’s in. 

[00:40:08] Josiah: There was a lot of moth lore.

[00:40:10] It’s on the cover of the book and the film. The moth lore in the film, very truncated. Leaves a lot to the imagination. Book has multiple visits to the insect nerd’s, what’s his name, Roden? 

[00:40:27] Rebekah: Uh-huh. 

[00:40:27] Josiah: Yeah. Roden and Pilcher. 

[00:40:29] Rebekah: Roden and 

[00:40:29] Josiah: Pilcher. Clarice ends up dating Pilcher in the epilogue of the book, which I think is funny.

[00:40:33] He does appear in the graduation scene in passing, like, as a little cameo. Yeah. Pilcher does, but- That’s 

[00:40:38] Rebekah: hilarious- The- … that 

[00:40:40] Josiah: they 

[00:40:40] Rebekah: thought that. 

[00:40:41] Josiah: The film shows just one scene where the insect from the victim’s throat is immediately identified. I, I was surprised. Yeah. I watched that scene and I thought, “Gosh, that took a long time in the book to get through,” where they were like, “Yeah, if it’s- Yeah

[00:40:57] if it’s wet in there it’s gonna take us a long time to figure out what species this is.” Yeah. “Uh, hang out a long time.” 

[00:41:05] Donna: Uh, because I live with your dad, I have watched this one other time. And so when we got to this point in the book, which I had never read the book, I was like focused on the moths. Like, I wanna know about, about the moths.

[00:41:17] Mm-hmm. ‘Cause it’s so big, such a big deal- ‘Cause they have a big- … on the book cover … they 

[00:41:21] Josiah: have a big picture of a skull on their head. 

[00:41:24] Donna: So what’s the point of- What a great coincidence … what’s the point of the book title Silence of the Lambs? So- 

[00:41:31] Josiah: I, Mother, did always think that it was, uh, mixed metaphors, that it was confused- Mm

[00:41:39] messaging to have it be called Silence of the Lambs and it was a- Yeah … moth on the cover. I did always think- Yeah … that was mixed messaging. You watch the movie and you’re like, “Yeah, there’s, there’s just a lot of symbolism to go around in the movie.” Mm-hmm. So it, it’s fine. Yeah. I did wanna- Yeah … talk about the scene with the night vision goggles, the climax of the film.

[00:42:00] The second climax of the film I would argue. Yes. Uh, gosh, I don’t wanna- Mm … just talk about the whole film ’cause, uh- Yeah … the first climax I would argue is when Hannibal escapes and- Mm-hmm … it is pretty similar except for how the, the device that he uses to uncuff himself- Oh, I wanted to say at the beginning that one of the things I liked that wasn’t changed was his escape- Mm

[00:42:25] with being s- disguising himself as the person. Uh, it was much tenser for me in the film. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause in the book- Yeah … it, some of it’s on screen, or some of it’s on page. But you just kind of mention later, “Oh my goodness, he escaped disguised as that guy.” Whereas in the film, I’m watching it and I’m like, “Oh my goodness, that’s Hannibal Lecter, guys.”

[00:42:50] And seeing how- Mm. 

[00:42:52] Donna: You’re wanting to holler at them, “Hello. Oh, wake up.” 

[00:42:56] Josiah: Oh my goodness, that, so that was great. So I loved that that was the first, the first- Mm … of, climax of the film, and of the book as well. I think that that’s one of the great geniuses of this story that I’m upset that the author does not seem to understand why Silence of the Lambs is so great.

[00:43:18] Mm. Okay. I think he accidentally wrote how great this f- uh, story is. 

[00:43:23] Donna: Might be so. Mm. 

[00:43:24] Josiah: But then there’s the, the ultimate climax with Clarice and Buffalo Bill, where I thought in the film it amped up the tension. Although I was very impressed with the book- Mm … how it wrote Clarice scared in the dark. I was very impressed with that.

[00:43:37] That’s probably exactly how he needed to do it. But that’s just such a cinematic sequence that needs to be seen on film. Sh- her in the dark, and then the night vision goggles turn on, so you’re watching- Dear Lord … from his perspective. Uh- 

[00:43:54] Donna: So good … 

[00:43:55] Josiah: y- it’s a lot more from his perspective than- Yes … Clarice’s, whereas in the book, it’s very much from Clarice’s perspective.

[00:44:02] And actually, I liked in the book, and you had to, you had to lose this in the film, I get it. I liked in the book that it went back and forth from Jame’s to Clarice’s perspective back and forth. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It made me think that their perspectives were almost blurred. In one sense- Mm-hmm … uh, and I, you guys are gonna get goosebumps for this.

[00:44:23] In one sense, that Clarice is trying to get inside Jame’s head so that she can defeat him, uh, arrest- Yes … or defeat him, and in the other, h- on the other hand, Jame is trying to get in Clarice’s head because he envies her, uh, her sex. 

[00:44:42] Rebekah: Eh. 

[00:44:43] Josiah: They’re in each other’s heads. Yeah. And I thought the book portrayed that great.

[00:44:46] Mm-hmm. Now, the film, what it portrayed, I’m not gonna say is better, but it’s, uh, equally as powerful that you start the film, a- and throughout the film, but even at the, even at the start of the film, you have men eyeing Clarice up and down. And then the climax of the film- Mm-hmm … it’s very important that she is being watched- Yes

[00:45:10] by a man who will hurt her in a way that she feels any man could. Uh, you know, there’s always that- Mm-hmm … thought of, “Is this man gonna wanna kiss me so bad that he would force me to kiss him?” I use the word kiss. 

[00:45:26] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:45:27] Josiah: And then you’re at the climax of the film. So I, I love the climax of the film, and I love the climax of the book.

[00:45:34] I think both of them work really well. Mm-hmm. Probably the film is a little stronger, but, uh, both of them very strong in unique ways. Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:43] Donna: But then they close the film. So Lecter calls Clarice from somewhere in South America, that he’s, he’s escaped. He’s going to have an- Mm-hmm … old friend for dinner. Hit line.

[00:45:55] Who turns out to be Dr. Chilton, and that’s great. He gets off the plane and, you know. Uh, versus in the book, he stays at a hotel littered with recovering cosmetic surgery patients. Mm-hmm. That’s interesting. But I felt like for the film this was, this was a, a game changer for me for an ending. Um, he does a lot of procedures to change his appearance.

[00:46:18] He spent a lot of money to get, change his hair color, the length, and just everything to make himself look different. Cleverly use a cute hat. Um, and they touch on Catherine Martin’s recovery as well. The part of this scene where he goes walking off behind Chilton. 

[00:46:36] Josiah: Mm. 

[00:46:37] Donna: Oh my gosh They have made me want this cannibal to go eat that man.

[00:46:47] Mm-hmm. And then I thought, “Oh, my Lord. Where’s your head, woman?” 

[00:46:51] Josiah: I, one of the geniuses of, of the story is that Hannibal is literally an evil person who- Mm-hmm … within the context of this plot is a protagonist because- Yeah … he, because Buffalo Bill, catching Buffalo Bill is the goal, and Hannibal Lecter- Yeah

[00:47:12] is both the, uh, help and hindrance to that goal. But he is essentially- Mm-hmm … helping Clarice get there in his own funny little way. So he, he- Yeah … plays the role of a protagonist. You like him because- Mm-hmm … he teams up with the hero. Yeah. I think it’s genius. You don’t, you don’t see it very often at all.

[00:47:33] Rebekah: Yes. Before we get out of Changes, I just wanted to talk about how this was such a unique thing in terms of the sequel. Like, I don’t- 

[00:47:41] Josiah: Hmm … 

[00:47:42] Rebekah: I can’t think of hardly any other books or films- Mm-hmm … that you could take the sequel and make them a movie that felt so much like the first in a series. And so I didn’t even know all of this ’cause I only knew of the Anthony Hopkins films.

[00:47:58] I assumed that they were released, uh, in novel form in the same order as the films, but they’re not. Okay, so in novels you have Red Dragon released in ’81. These are very spread out. Silence of the Lambs was written and released in 1988. Hannibal was 11 years later in ’99, and then Hannibal Rising, which is a prequel, was released in 2006.

[00:48:22] Josiah: You’re forgetting the sequel that was made into a standalone film, which is what I thought of with Silence of the Lamb specifically, Die Hard. 

[00:48:32] Rebekah: Yeah. There was another movie before that or another book first. Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:36] Josiah: Yeah. Yeah. And another movie with, like, Frank Sinatra as the lead. 

[00:48:39] Donna: Um, yeah. Yeah. Yes. 

[00:48:39] Rebekah: You’re right, 

[00:48:40] Donna: you’re right.

[00:48:40] Um, I don’t wanna make a big deal about this, but Star Wars IV, V, and VI came out before I, II, and III, and VII, VIII, IX, so. 

[00:48:49] Rebekah: I think it’s just that 

[00:48:51] Donna: this- It’s, it’s- … the series of films- This is interesting, yes. 

[00:48:54] Rebekah: It’s a series of films that works, each film kind of works as a standalone. 

[00:48:59] Donna: So let’s look at a little bit of statistical trivia.

[00:49:03] Rebekah: Okay. 

[00:49:03] Donna: Uh, the book released on August 29th, 1988. 1988 was a great year, I think. 

[00:49:11] Josiah: Yes. 

[00:49:12] Donna: Um, the movie released, uh, two and a half years, I guess, later in January ’91. Uh, on the 30th it released in New York City, and then weirdly, who marketed this? On February 14th it released in the US and, and worldwide. 

[00:49:31] Josiah: Huh. 

[00:49:33] Donna: I mean, it’s a Valentine movie, right?

[00:49:36] Are you sure Josh and I wasn’t- 

[00:49:37] Rebekah: Let’s go on a date … on a 

[00:49:38] Donna: date? Yeah. You, yeah, yeah. Then book ratings. Okay, Goodreads, 593,000 ratings. It got a 4.26 out of 5. Um, movie ratings, Rotten Tomatoes, the critics’ Tomatometer was, uh, 95%, held a 95%. Um, it also has a 95% audience score. Uh, the Popcornmeter is, is 95, which I think that’s pretty cool that they’re in agreement because we know that does not often happen.

[00:50:10] Um, the production cost, $19 million. Uh, opening weekend, $13.7 million. It had the highest February release at that time until its own sequel, Hannibal, was released 10 years later, which I thought was interesting. Uh, USA, Canada gross was 130.7 million. The international gross, 142 million, bringing a total of a $19 million budget movie to $272.7 million.

[00:50:45] Rebekah: I will also say- 

[00:50:46] Donna: Not, not shabby … 

[00:50:47] Rebekah: in 1988 dollars, that 19 million today would be worth 53 million. 

[00:50:52] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:50:52] Rebekah: So, like, just we look at a lot of, like, modern movies and budgets- Yeah … and so. 

[00:50:57] Donna: Sure. Uh, the film was shockingly, I’m sure you’ll just think this, it was rated R. Um, it was filmed in and around Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and there were some other shots, certain scenes done in Northern West Virginia.

[00:51:12] Rebekah: Uh, the Victorian house used as Buffalo Bill’s home in Periopolis, Pennsylvania went up for sale in August 2015 for $300,000. After it sat unsold for a year, it sold for $195,000. 

[00:51:29] Donna: Seems like somebody would wanna snap that up. I mean- 

[00:51:32] Rebekah: I’m shocked … I, I, 

[00:51:33] Donna: I just thought somebody would be like, “I want, I want to live in Bu- ” I don’t know.

[00:51:38] I guess I’m … Okay. 

[00:51:40] Rebekah: No, I mean, there’s weird people out there. 

[00:51:41] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:51:42] Josiah: There was a scene in the FBI director’s office, uh, that was shot in the office of Elizabeth Dole, then US Secretary of Labor. Rebecca, who was the husband of Elizabeth Dole? 

[00:52:00] Rebekah: Dole 

[00:52:01] Josiah: Wow. And why is he important? Hey, 

[00:52:03] Rebekah: listener, 

[00:52:04] Donna: we are 

[00:52:04] Rebekah: so proud of her.

[00:52:04] He ran for president at one point. 

[00:52:07] Josiah: He did. Yeah. Well, I, I wasn’t- I guess … gonna ask you the year, but I, I will just for fun 

[00:52:15] Rebekah: 2008 

[00:52:15] Josiah: No. ’96 

[00:52:17] Donna: I think he might’ve been dead by then. 

[00:52:20] Josiah: He died- No. It was tragic- Oh, was it? … because Norm Macdonald portrayed him on SNL, and he was like- Oh … 20 years younger than h- than Bob Dole.

[00:52:29] But Norm died a couple months before Bob Dole did. Bob Dole outlived Norm Macdonald. It was very sad. 

[00:52:35] Donna: Also, Elizabeth Dole ran for president as well. 

[00:52:39] Josiah: Oh. In ’08 maybe? When? 

[00:52:42] Donna: I don’t know. 2000? I don’t know years. Don’t ask. I just know she did. 

[00:52:46] Josiah: It was actually an extremely rare occurrence that the FBI allowed- Mm-hmm

[00:52:50] some scenes to be shot- Oh, yeah … at the FBI Academy at Quantico, with some bit parts being played by actual staff members. They do not usually let that 

[00:52:58] Donna: happen. I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. Between that and some of the, some of the research, I’d done a l- a few, I’d read a few other things about how, like, Hopkins and Foster both, besides what Crawford’s character went through that we read about- Mm-hmm

[00:53:14] that how Hopkins and, and Foster both went through and studied for the character and thought that was interesting. Um, last bit of location trivia. Uh, Buffalo Bill’s basement and pit design was inspired by the murders of real-life kidnapper Gary Heidnik. Like… 

[00:53:36] Josiah: Mm, mm, mm. 

[00:53:36] Donna: Maybe that’s, maybe that’s why his house didn’t sell.

[00:53:40] Rebekah: Oh, ’cause it was, like, too real. 

[00:53:43] Josiah: Hey, so some more interesting trivia, not just about the locations. The Best Dress Award. Now, I’ve read ahead, and I do not know- What? … what any of this means. Mm-hmm. The Best Dress Award goes to the tobacco hornworm moths used during the film. They were dressed in body shields- A donor

[00:54:08] bearing a painted skull and crossbones- … which I didn’t know was a thing. Uh- Oh. Moving right along, they were also flown to the set first class in a special carrier and had their own rooms with heat and humidity controls. What? I didn’t know that a moth could control- Wow … a thermometer. What? 

[00:54:31] Donna: What? I, I read that and I was like, “What?”

[00:54:38] I j- Catch a freaking butterfly out in the field. 

[00:54:44] Rebekah: I don’t think they can do that, Mom. 

[00:54:47] Donna: How much of the $19 million was put into these stupid hornworm moths? 

[00:54:52] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:52] Donna: That’s what I wanna know. I’d love to know. 

[00:54:55] Rebekah: Anthony Hopkins and Martha Stewart were dating- 

[00:54:58] Donna: That’s a couple right there … 

[00:55:00] Rebekah: just before and a- … and during production of the movie.

[00:55:03] After the film was released, Martha Stewart broke it off and said she couldn’t separate Hopkins from Lecter. 

[00:55:10] Donna: Okay. Let’s talk about dad. Let’s talk about dad for a minute 

[00:55:14] Rebekah: Oh no. 

[00:55:15] Donna: Before we got married, we had discussions about can we, are we compatible? Just kind of some of them very serious discussions, but things like We kind of made jokes about it.

[00:55:26] Do you squeeze your toothpaste in the middle or do you squeeze it from the end? And just that kinda thing. Dad says to me, “In all seriousness, please, whatever you do- You know it’s dad … don’t ever bring a knife to bed with you.” 

[00:55:42] Josiah: Mm-hmm. As a prank maybe? And I looked at him and was 

[00:55:43] Donna: like, “Who? What do you think of me?

[00:55:43] Why would I ever conceive a notion to put a knife in my hand and

[00:55:54] carry it to bed?” And he was like, “I was just thinking like prank or whatever.” And he was so serious. And I was like, “Okay, I thought mine was brutal too, but not the knife.” Anyway, I just thought it, you know. 

[00:56:09] Rebekah: On that note, let’s give our final verdicts, and I will go first. 

[00:56:14] Josiah: Oh, you don’t wanna go last? 

[00:56:15] Rebekah: Um- 

[00:56:16] Josiah: You’re the most passionate about it

[00:56:17] I, 

[00:56:17] Rebekah: oh, I’m so passionate. You can go first. I 

[00:56:25] Josiah: think the book’s great. Let’s say nine out of 10. Silence of the Lambs, the movie’s great, maybe a nine and a half out of 10. I think the movie makes a lot of improvements. I am torn on Anthony Hopkins ’cause he does some great stuff, and he’s also kinda weird. But I don’t know if it’s on purpose.

[00:56:47] Uh, I think any changes from the book, which there are very few, any changes from the book are mostly good or necessary changes. I also feel like it’s one of the most faithful adaptation from a book we’ve ever covered. 

[00:57:03] Donna: Even the differences in appearance from what they were described were m- minuscule.

[00:57:09] What do you think of Demme as a director then? 

[00:57:13] Josiah: Okay. That’s a great question. I mean, does this 

[00:57:14] Donna: speak to his- 

[00:57:15] Josiah: I, I was forgetting, ’cause I ha- I did have an opinion that I f- I forgot to mention. 

[00:57:18] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:57:19] Josiah: I, I haven’t seen Philadelphia, which I would say is probably his most famous other… His second most famous film that he directed.

[00:57:28] Okay. So I don’t know about his holistic work, but the fact that I don’t, I haven’t really heard of anything besides Silence of the Lambs and Philadelphia tells me something, that it was also an accident that he made this so well. 

[00:57:41] Rebekah: Hmm. 

[00:57:41] Josiah: Uh, hi- his camera work being, you know, acting as the male gaze, uh, towards Clarice, and then- Mm-hmm

[00:57:51] how often, how often characters, whenever Clarice is looking at someone and the camera looks at them, how often the other characters are- Mm-hmm … looking into the camera. Huge. 

[00:58:02] Donna: It’s huge. It’s so- He, he very- 

[00:58:04] Josiah: Mm-hmm … 

[00:58:04] Donna: that was very intentional. 

[00:58:06] Josiah: Yeah. 

[00:58:06] Donna: I read several things about that, and I’m really sorry I didn’t even, didn’t mention them before, but I’m glad you brought it up.

[00:58:13] He did several things like that where he wanted- Especially Lecter. He wanted you to see that, those characters looking at you. Yeah. He wanted the viewer to see that, and I thought that was wild. ‘Cause that can also be kind of a risk, right? I mean- Well, yeah, 

[00:58:29] Josiah: another 

[00:58:29] Donna: risk is- You, you take a risk when you do it

[00:58:31] Josiah: another risk in the cinematography is that so many of the characters are framed in the center of the shot, which is usually a very unnatural place to be. Mm. You reserve it for, uh, kingly characters or tyrants, very powerful people. But the shot, reverse shot for Clarice and, uh, Cardwell, what’s his name?

[00:58:57] Cardstock 

[00:59:01] Donna: Da 

[00:59:02] Josiah: No 

[00:59:03] Donna: Chilton? No It was- The other one … Jack Crawford 

[00:59:06] Josiah: Jack Crawford 

[00:59:06] Rebekah: Crawford. 

[00:59:07] Josiah: Jack Cardstock 

[00:59:08] Donna: How many names can Jack Cardstock have? 

[00:59:13] Josiah: Um, you know, Car- Cardstock ha- is in the center of the frame, but so is Hannibal Lecter, so is Chilton, so is Clarice often, so is Catherine, so is, uh, Buffalo Bill. All these characters are in the center of the frame, and that’s such an unnatural place.

[00:59:28] And Mom, what you mentioned of, uh, of just the looking into the camera being a risk is totally true because you risk it feeling- Oh my gosh, yeah … corny or, um- Yeah … you just, you break people’s suspension of disbelief. But this established a film language, and it was consistent throughout. Mm-hmm. So it was a very capably directed and cinematographed film, which I do believe makes it, the, the movie, the film is better.

[00:59:59] Mm-hmm. Uh, but the book is great. Book is great. Yeah. I, I think that the movie more so than the book invented the genre of criminal minds. 

[01:00:11] Donna: Um, so for me, the… I was not sure what this book would be like. I wondered if it would be dull, and I don’t mean that in a bad way because I really didn’t know anything about the book other than it existed, but I was so pleased at how it moved along.

[01:00:29] It kept my attention. When I started listening to it, I wanted to keep listening to it. Like, I wanted s- I wanted to g- get through it to see the next thing. I wasn’t like, “Oh, when’s the end? When’s the end?” So I really was pleased with that. I would say definitely the book would be a nine. The movie, I haven’t seen it since the early ’90s.

[01:00:50] Looking at the mind of a, of a serial killer to me is a fascinating thing because it’s so foreign to how we would think, and I want to understand that, and I’ve, uh, you know, it’s broken record. Uh, so I will say I did like the movie better than the book. If I gave the book a nine to 9.25, I mean, I’d say the movie, I’d go to a 9.5.

[01:01:16] Uh, but they were close. They were really close, and I’m pleasantly surp- pr- surprised at, at my reactions, uh, to both of them. 

[01:01:25] Rebekah: Um, my final verdict, I have, like I said, seen this movie so many times. I don’t know that I would say it’s a movie I just put on in the background all the time. It’s an intentional watch.

[01:01:37] Um, but I went and looked at what I rated the book, and I actually gave it, like, a seven and a half. There was something- Yeah … in the writing style that I hated that drove me nuts, and I’m Jos- I’m curious, Josiah, of your, uh, thoughts, but it changed a lot from present tense to past tense. Oh. And I could tell it was purposeful.

[01:01:57] Like, I don’t think it was the author’s mistake or, like, the editor’s you know, missed it or anything. I just, every time I saw it, it, like, bugged me. I thought that the moth stuff was interesting and felt more accurate when they extended it, but then I was like, I don’t know, in the movie it made more sense.

[01:02:15] I didn’t love that they point out in the book, as in the film, that Pilcher has, like, a lazy eye, and then that’s the guy that Starling ends up with. I don’t know why that, like, bothers me. So I don’t know. There was just a lot that I was like, “Okay, this isn’t bad,” and obviously it inspired, um, such an incredible work, um, for a reason.

[01:02:37] But yeah, it was not as good as the film, for sure. The film made a lot of improvements. I agree with Josiah’s statement about that. And I would say the film is probably 9.5 out of 10 for me. Um- Mm-hmm … I think it’s a classic for a reason. Silence of the Lambs is one of those movies that when we talk to young adults that are trying to get more into, um, you know, watching really iconic films, this is always on the list- Yeah

[01:03:08] ’cause it’s so- For sure … creepy and weird, but it’s really so unique for its time and, and for the way that it’s set up. So- 

[01:03:16] Donna: Mm-hmm … 

[01:03:17] Rebekah: yeah, that’s what I think. Well, I think that that’s where we’re gonna leave it. I hope that you have enjoyed this episode as much as we have enjoyed filming it for you. If you did, leave us a review.

[01:03:28] A review. Yes. Please. 

[01:03:29] Josiah: Baby listeners- Please … 

[01:03:31] Rebekah: please, we’re begging you. So many thousands of listens. So few thousands of reviews. I’m begging. Please. I’m kidding, except I’m kind of not. Anyway, you can also support us on Patreon. There is a link in the description, and, uh, you should support us there, get some fun bonus content.

[01:03:48] Mm-hmm. And, uh, find us on social. Mom has been really active on X, and we’re posting regularly on Instagram and some TikTok, some Facebook. We’re all over the place. Our book is Better Pod. Yeah. And, uh, until next time. 

[01:04:03] Josiah: Goodbye, baby listeners. If we keep meeting like this, people will say we’re in love.

[01:04:17] Yes, Hannibal Lecter’s classic laugh. Bye. Bye.

[01:04:38] Donna: Uh, but on another note, I bet consignment stores for moth clothes wouldn’t do it.