S01E17 — Dune: Part One
SPOILER ALERT: This episode and transcript below contains major spoilers for Dune.
Apple Podcasts • Spotify • Audible • Amazon Music • iHeart • Pandora
Featuring hosts Timothy Haynes, Donna Haynes, Rebekah Edwards, and T. Josiah Haynes.
The spice must flow, and so must the opinions! In this episode, we dive into Dune Part One — sandworms, spice, and Timothée Chalamet’s brooding stares. We break down the 2021 film, compare it to the 1984 fever dream, and sprinkle in some book lore. Who nailed it, who failed it, and who just needed a sip of water on Arrakis? Tune in for desert drama, family debates, and a whole lot of sand!
Don’t miss our episode on Dune: Part Two.
Final Verdicts
If you haven’t listened to the episode yet, we recommend waiting to read our verdicts. (But you’re probably grown, so do what you want!)
The 2021 Dune film delivers epic visuals, streamlined storytelling, and a brooding Paul, while the 1984 version crams in the whole plot with some wild 80s quirks and questionable effects. Both tell the same story, but one’s a sleek sandstorm and the other’s a chaotic desert whirlwind.
Tim: The movie was better
Donna: The movie was better
Rebekah: The movie was better
Josiah: The movie was better
Other Episodes You’ll Love
Full Episode Transcript
Prefer reading? Check out the full episode transcript below. It’s AI-generated from our audio, and if we’re being honest… no one sat to read the entire thing for accuracy. (After all, we were there the whole time.) 😉 We’re sorry in advance for any typos or transcription errors.
[00:00:00] Rebekah: Welcome to the Book is Better podcast. We are a family of four who reviews book to film adaptations. This is a clean podcast, but we talk about some complex topics. Spoiler alert for this episode. We are going to be discussing the book Dune. We are also going to be discussing the 1984 film based on the book as well as the 2021 film Dune Part 1.
Uh, there is a chance that we will also spoil, uh, the rest of the Dune series at different points. So depending on what we’re talking about, if you want to go back and read first or, um, just kind of get to know the movie, make sure that you do that before diving right in. Um, to get started, we like to share a little fun fact about ourselves as we introduce who we are.
So I’ll go first. I am Rebecca, I am the daughter slash sister of the pod. And the fun fact for today is, what is your favorite climate to visit? I am a boring white girl. I like the beach. I know that’s probably silly or too basic, but as much as I enjoy going into the mountains or would like to try going on a skiing vacation, for instance, I default to being on the beach when it’s hot and I can get a tan.
[00:01:12] Donna: So, uh, my name is Donna, and I’m the wife and mom in our pod. I like that we’re in a pod. We’re peas in a pod. It’s really clever. Oh, I have thought about this one. Mountains. I think mountains are beautiful. Um, the mountains in the fall before the weather starts to get weird. I’d say I love that. I like driving through, through mountains where we live and see the changing leaves.
So I’m going to pick fall climate. up in the mountains, a little cooler.
[00:01:43] Josiah: Nice. I’m Josiah. I am the brother son of this podcast group. I think, I don’t like to visit many places, but I’m imagining Caledon as a great place to go, kind of a wet grassland type area, anywhere that’s, anywhere that’s around 60 degrees and not dry.
I, and I don’t like the beach because you get sand everywhere.
[00:02:11] Tim: I don’t know that I have a favorite, favorite place or climate to visit particularly. I like the beach. I like, I like to go to the beach when it’s warm enough, but I don’t like it when it’s hot. Um, I like to visit the mountains when it’s cool enough, but not when it’s cold.
Um, and I have been,
[00:02:33] Rebekah: you want to live in San Francisco is what you’re telling me. I want
[00:02:35] Tim: to live in the place where the mean temperature is 70 degrees, All the year
[00:02:42] Rebekah: and there’s a beach the San Francisco
[00:02:43] Tim: that I can see and there are mountains that I can see and I can visit either one of them when I want to San Francisco.
Yeah, I guess
[00:02:50] Rebekah: I kind of am the same way. I, I like the beach when it’s hot because I know that I can sit out and get a tan. But like even this summer we went on a trip to Florida and it was When it was, like, in the hundreds, it was three digit temperatures, and I was miserable the whole time. I was like, can I have just air conditioning?
Just please give me air conditioning. Yes. Well, before we get into our changes, Josiah, would you like to walk us through a summary of the plot? Actually, can you describe what we’re going to be covering in today’s episode?
[00:03:19] Josiah: We are covering the first half of the first Dune book and about the first half of the 1984 David Lynch Dune movie and the complete first Dune movie by Denny Villeneuve with Timothee Chalamet in the starring role.
Officially,
[00:03:41] Rebekah: Dune Part One is the name of that movie.
[00:03:44] Josiah: Yes, so because that is the newest version, and we’re about to get Dune Part 2 coming out. Here’s the plot summary for Deni Villeneuve’s Dune Part 1. Dune is set in a distant future where the young Paul Atreides, heir to House Atreides, moves with his family to the desert planet Arrakis, the only source of the invaluable spice also called melange.
This relocation comes under the emperor’s orders But is a trap set by their enemies, the House Harkonnen or Harkonnen. Shortly after their arrival, House Atreides is betrayed and attacked by the Harkonnens with the help of the Emperor’s elite troops, the Sardaukar. Paul and his mother Jessica escape into the desert after his father, Duke Leto, is killed.
In the desert, they encounter the Fremen, the native inhabitants of Arrakis. Paul and Jessica join the Fremen, adapting to their desert life. Paul’s unique abilities and visions earn him a revered status among the Fremen. Paul’s integration into Fremen society is solidified when he defeats a Fremen warrior, Jamus, in ritual combat, proving himself to the tribe.
The film ends with Paul and Jessica fully accepted into the Fremen community, preparing for the larger conflict that lies ahead. Nice.
[00:05:14] Rebekah: And I will say, before we even talk about, like, how things were different, um, I did not finish the 1984 film, but I did watch quite a bit of it. Um, I’ve seen the 2021 film twice, and I would say I was actually pretty impressed with how much the plot was pretty consistent.
There were a few things maybe left out or shifted around, but I would say it was a relatively Close plots, the way that it was portrayed in the film to the book, which I like, I prefer that if I like a book, I don’t want them to completely try and rewrite it in the, in the movie. Ready Player One was kind of an exception for me where I still liked the movie when they did that.
But, um, we break these down into three types. of changes. Typically we do, uh, our characterization changes first, but I think I’d like to start with a few things about the setting and then just talk about the plot and timeline. And I’d actually like to end with some characterizations just because there’s a second movie coming and there’s a lot of things that are changed on purpose for that that I thought would be interesting.
So, uh, let’s talk setting, and we’ll kind of try to divide these into things that we noticed in the 1984 film and then things that we noticed in the 2021 Dune Part 1.
[00:06:28] Josiah: The 1984 film depicts the Emperor’s planet and throne room where he is confronted by the Spacing Guild. Is it in the book? Is it in the book?
I don’t think it was in the book.
[00:06:40] Rebekah: I don’t think it’s in the book. I think that was added. I think it was added
[00:06:43] Josiah: for the movie. So that, that was an addition and The Emperor is not even in the 2021 film. He will be in the 2024 sequel played by Christopher Walken, which I’m very interested in what that’ll be like.
[00:06:59] Tim: The 1984 film also takes more time to introduce the audience, the spacing guild and the method they use to fold space for space travel. Um, although Herbert didn’t want to spend a lot of time on the sci fi tech. Um, the 84 film did attempt to show you. At least some of that stuff. Production setting.
[00:07:25] Josiah: I, I really liked, I think David Lynch had a lot of problems with his film, but I liked when he portrayed the folding of space when the Atreides went from Caledon to Arrakis.
I thought that was a really cool visual effect.
[00:07:40] Rebekah: Was that the weird squishy alien thing? What was that? Yes, he looks like a drug triad. I was, what was that? Like, what was that? That is, those are the attic
[00:07:50] Tim: beings. They are people. They were originally human beings. Who over centuries of their use of spice have been so altered that he looks like that flying squid kind of thing.
Yeah. It’s so weird.
[00:08:09] Rebekah: Okay. I was like, I saw that and I thought, okay, I get the space folding thing, but what is this?
[00:08:15] Tim: But he has a whole entourage that has to bring him in and it’s kind of, it’s a little weird In the 84 film when, when he goes out in his large tank, the group that they clean up behind him, like he’s wet the whole floor and all that.
It’s just kind of weird. It’s a strange visual.
[00:08:36] Donna: That, that depiction where you, they zoom in on that little mouth looking hole and it looks like it’s talking and I was like, okay, he’s communicating through some, I don’t know, telepathic, whatever. And then you see a similar looking hole, which I thought was that the same one, and it shoots fire out of it.
And I thought, it looks like he’s pooping. He’s pooping fire. It’s so weird. I did not. I, that was, I was very lost on that. It was. Wait, wait. Pooping started the fire. Yes. It was always burning since the world’s been turned.
[00:09:12] Rebekah: Okay.
[00:09:12] Josiah: Hilarious.
[00:09:13] Donna: The interior set pieces for the 1984 film seem very limited and awkward.
There’s a narrow hallway in the Arrakis Castle with a control center crammed into it. And that’s like a prominent place for people to go by. So people have to like squeeze their way through the corridor. In several scenes you see it. Um, The Emperor’s Palace is very steampunk. Uh, The Harkonnen’s home planet, uh, Gedi or Gaidi Prime, it’s industrial, it’s more industrial, and it’s, it’s dirty, it’s dank.
But all of the interiors seemed small and cramped, where I noticed that in the 21 film, a lot of the rooms that a lot of people are in are massive, where the private rooms, like Paul’s, Paul’s main, his bedroom, his living quarters, those are more small and intimate as a, in a family setting,
[00:10:10] Rebekah: like fairly, they’re still decently sized,
[00:10:12] Donna: but they’re, but things are, are larger and expanded.
Um, And the book, but when you’re reading the book, that’s right. Rebecca, it’s, it’s very grand
[00:10:22] Tim: and regal. And it, and it should be in, in the book and the 1984 film, it’s made clear that spice allows space vessels to travel. Anywhere in space without moving, which is the primary reason that it’s so valuable and central to the society.
The 2021 film just says that it’s what allows interstellar travel and there’s no additional explanation. It’s just kind of, it is. It’s a little bit like Star Trek and the warp engine. How do you get there? We have a warp engine.
[00:10:58] Rebekah: Yeah, I was watching this with a couple of our boys and they said something about like the spice is what allows for interstellar travel and both of them looked at me and they were like, so what does the spice do?
So I had to explain like what the book explained. So I did think that was a very odd thing to leave out. of the newer film. Like, I kind of understand not wanting to explain the mechanics in detail, but we’ll get later on to a place that they could have explained it, which would have been in the films that Paul was watching to learn about Arrakis before they left.
But anyway, I digress. Um, I would, I wanted to say this is not a change from book to movie. I just kind of noticed it between the two films. When I was watching this the second time, Like the new movie, I noticed how extensively water was used on Kaladin, like in every interior scene, not just, oh, we see the ocean and oh, we see the rain and oh, we this, like there was so much water and dampness, like just shown in every single scene on Kaladin.
And then as soon as they get to the planet Dune, they use Like dust. It wasn’t just heat in the in the 1984 film. It looks like it was just they used it as like heat and it was just really hot. But I loved it in the newer movie. It really captured the differentiation that I felt in the book reading it when it was like, going from, you know, the, the wet planet to the dusty hot planet.
I felt like I like was super into it. Like I, I believed it and I really appreciated that because in the older, yeah, in the 20 or in the 1984 film, it just felt Like, I don’t know, it came off weird to me when they actually went to Arrakis.
[00:12:37] Donna: The 21 film uses tones, colors, and, and sweeping visuals to make that distinction as well.
Like it’s, I felt like Villeneuve felt his choices were very wise. There’s a way to tell things without telling everything and, and give the audience opportunity to draw some conclusions. You don’t have to spell out every little word, every thought, every. every piece of every conversation or whatever.
[00:13:06] Rebekah: You mentioned color and like the Caledon scenes were all very blue tinted.
The Arrakis scenes were all very orange tinted. And then the little bit that we got of like the Baron and House Harkonnen. Gaiety Prime probably. It felt like it was gray. It was like desaturated. Gaiety Prime, yeah. It felt kind of desaturated, very like grayish. And so I really did like that use of color and all of that.
[00:13:30] Josiah: There is a more polished look to the sets in the 2021 film. It is definitely a different feel to that of the 1984 film. There seems to be a strong emphasis on the overall somber feel of the story. I think that, I mean, my general opinion about the 2021 movie. Especially after reading the book is that Denny Villeneuve, Dune does not deserve this director.
This 2021 film is so much cooler than the book is. I’m not saying it’s better necessarily, but the book is, is very much like, this is a nerd writing down. And the movie for better or worse, really pulls it into the mainstream, makes it look cool. makes it look sleek.
[00:14:19] Donna: I say every episode, I’m not going to say something about casting.
You can’t overlook that. And I think the casting of the 21 film versus the 84, I mean, each director was doing, they had a different vision.
[00:14:32] Rebekah: As we move into plot and timeline changes, I just wanted to kind of clarify that, especially the 1984 film, honestly, but also the 2021, I would say made a very minor number of changes to the major plot, uh, points, which I really appreciate.
I could follow what was going on. Like I caught some things, but I felt like I could follow what was going on and it felt similar to the movie. Now, dad, can you give us a rundown of like what parts each book and film and other stuff covered before we get into the changes?
[00:15:04] Tim: The 1984 film covers the entire, uh, the first Dune book.
It is two hours and 17 minutes long, and like the last 37 to 40 minutes. Is the second half. Oh, gosh. The
[00:15:20] Rebekah: one that’s about to be a second movie. The one
[00:15:21] Tim: that’s going to be a second movie. And it speeds through a lot of things. So, uh, even some of the previews of the 21, uh, film, you notice they’re going to expand on some of the things that the previous film zoomed through pretty quickly.
The miniseries that covers the first book is four and a half hours long. if that gives you a clue why they probably decided for the 2021 film. There’s enough there for two movies, for sure.
[00:15:49] Rebekah: Yeah, I was going to say that feels like it’s about, it’s going to be the length of Dune Part 1 and Dune Part 2 together.
Yeah, pretty
[00:15:56] Tim: much. The 21 film ends after, after the, the fight with Jameis. Paul and Jessica are brought into the, into the fold with the Fremen in the 84 film. They don’t show Paul fighting Jameis and one of the, one of the consequences of the fight in the book is that when he kills him, he has to take responsibility for his family.
And he has two sons, one from. His union with with his wife and one from her previous husband that he had killed in a duel that Jameson killed. Um, and those two boys show prominently in the book. They’re a big part. They don’t have. They’re always there, but but they’re fairly prominent. In the 84 film, there is no duel between them, so you don’t see that.
You do see these two young boys, pre teens is what they look like, that are always close to Paul for the rest of the movie. It’s as if they filmed the scene with the duel and decided to cut it out. It’s just kind of strange in the 84 film.
[00:17:07] Rebekah: I thought it was very interesting that the book Dune is broken into three, they call them books within the single novel.
Which is incredibly
[00:17:14] Josiah: confusing for us to discuss.
[00:17:17] Rebekah: First movie ends like halfway through book two of the novel. And so then book two and a half and three of the novel, I guess is going to be Dune part two. I understand why they broke it up this way, like in the films. I think that it worked, although. I will say when I was watching, uh, part one the first time, it did feel a little weird.
I almost thought like you could have ended the movie like when Paul and Jessica had escaped and like, uh, you see when Liet Kynes dies, like after helping them escape, I was like, you could have made that like the final scene, but I know Villeneuve wanted to focus mostly on Paul. So that was my first statement.
Just if you never read the book, it was an odd choice. Now, here’s my question. I know that there’s been speculation about a Dune Part 3. I think, based on everything I’ve read, that that would be based on the second book, which is Dune Massacre, is that correct? Like a novel. Yes. Sorry. Just not to confuse anything.
Now, has there ever been another, my question was, has there ever been another film based on Dune Messiah or would that be like essentially the first one? Because I know Dune Messiah is like a weird, it goes some weird places.
[00:18:28] Tim: The second, um, miniseries that the sci fi channel did, uh, they called it Children of Dune and it actually, um, it actually covers Dune Messiah.
And I think, oh my goodness, there’s one called Children of Dune. They take the title from the third book from the third novel, but, um, the second miniseries covers covers that. And actually, uh, James McAvoy plays. Plays Paul
[00:18:57] Josiah: Atreides son. Well, enough of that fun stuff. What about something that’s horrific?
The 1984 film portrays the incredibly predatory sexual behavior of Baron Vladimir Harkonnen for a PG 13 audience. This is very much from the book. The novel is clear regarding Baron’s behavior, his licentiousness. is pederasty. The 2021 film downplays the Baron’s aberrant behavior. I think It’s still
[00:19:33] Rebekah: creepy as crap though.
[00:19:34] Josiah: Yes, they, in the 2021 film, they took out some of the things that modern audiences might not have totally gone along with. But they emphasized how incredibly dark and creepy and physically corrupted he is. So there’s still a lot of the darkness there. It’s just, uh, takes a slightly different form than in the book and the 1984 film.
[00:20:00] Rebekah: Yeah, I don’t think that this is technically off plot, uh, I just thought it was really weird. I remember the first time, and again, when I watched it again, the scene where the Baron is in the black liquid to heal the oil. Uh, oh, and then he, or the oil, and then he like comes out of it. I was like, grossed out.
Ugh. Like I, ugh.
[00:20:20] Tim: When he comes out of that, I thought he would have to take off a breather or something. But he doesn’t. He comes up out of that as if he’s been breathing it. He’s been, you know, yeah, it was it’s nasty.
[00:20:33] Josiah: Denis Villeneuve did add the oil bath into the 2021 movie, which was not in the book. He added that because he had a dream.
Where the baron emerged like a hippopotamus from the mud.
[00:20:47] Rebekah: I have a dream that one day he will emerge like a hippopotamus from the mud.
[00:20:53] Josiah: Yes. Much less inspiring than MLK Jr.
[00:20:57] Donna: Continuing on in plot and timeline, if we move to the 21 film, it emits the books Epigraphs from Princess Lon. Mm-Hmm. .
[00:21:06] Speaker 7: Yeah. Which foreshadow
[00:21:07] Donna: events provide context, um, which I like by the way, in the book.
Yes. VN is, I, I liked those in the
[00:21:12] Josiah: book.
[00:21:13] Donna: And via news film instead delivers like a more direct narrative experience. So you’re seeing this more than more from Paul’s perspective. Very, very much more from Paul’s perspective. And they cut the exposition of Princess Irulan as the opening scene, which appear in the book and in the 1984 film, replacing it with Chani.
In the 2021 film, I thought, do I like this? I mean, I don’t even know her. We have no context for who she is. And the farther along it got, it was like, I looked forward to it. Like, I wanted to hear what she said.
[00:21:54] Tim: Some other authors do the same kinds of things, though, in their, in their novels. You’re telling
[00:21:59] Donna: me another author does that?
What kinds of authors,
[00:22:01] Rebekah: Dad?
[00:22:02] Tim: Like T. Josiah Haynes and his kind of thing. Ah,
[00:22:05] Rebekah: the award winning author of the Heirs of History series. I believe that the third book in this five book series was recently released, and I believe that you can get signed copies from the author. You can get
[00:22:15] Josiah: signed copies, I think you can.
Because we
[00:22:17] Rebekah: have an inside connection.
[00:22:19] Josiah: At the beginning of every part of my, of my book that I wrote, there are diary entries from the future. So I did, I did get the, uh, the similar thing. I think one of the first places I saw that was in Isaac Asimov’s books, foundation books. And, uh, so I, I think it was a pretty common sort of, uh, Thing, especially in the early 1900s sci fi fantasy, but I liked them in the book.
I just want to say, I think it’s better in the, in the Denny Villeneuve movie that Chani has a little exposition in the beginning of the movie. They wanted to give Zendaya a bigger part. I think it makes sense to give Chani a little bit of a bigger part. And I think that it was a conscious, sensical decision to essentially cut the Emperor and Princess Irulan from the 2021 film.
Awaiting their arrival in the story. Yes, they’re only mentioned in the 2024 sequel. Yeah.
[00:23:20] Donna: And, and again, this is a change that works in a book. But as we saw in the 84, when they tried to, it didn’t work as well on film.
[00:23:30] Tim: Every time they were thinking in the, in the 1984 film, it felt uncomfortable.
[00:23:36] Josiah: I was watching with subtitles on HBO Max and they called it the inner voice.
I know what it is. It’s narration.
[00:23:43] Donna: Yeah, it was off, but I mean, it was just because they’re sitting still and words are being read and it’s like, what are you doing? That’s not translating.
[00:23:53] Josiah: Cause it’s in the book. Oh yeah. I didn’t hear everyone’s thoughts, but honestly, that being in the 1984 film, in my opinion, completely ruins any chance of that film being a good movie.
[00:24:08] Rebekah: I did understand why they did the whole, like, exposition from Chani and they cut Princess Irulan’s things though from the beginning. I will say it helped me a lot in the book to have Princess Irulan kind of establish a lot about the culture and the society. I felt like there was some stuff missing in the new movie that I did not understand.
You know, I had to look up, what does this mean? Why is this this way? There’s like so much more that I looked up or had to reread in the book. When we were watching the movie, I felt like they kept, the boys I was watching with kept asking me questions. Because it was clear that there was like some stuff that just wasn’t obvious or explained.
[00:24:50] Josiah: I think that it’s a lot better for them to ask questions of how things work than for David Lynch to waste your time. Having someone jump out of their character and explain things that honestly aren’t important to the plot
[00:25:07] Tim: in the 84 film. I’m listening to Max van seed out a very famous actor sitting in the ornithopter with Paul and his dad and says he knows our ways and things like that.
And it’s like they’re carrying on a conversation and then this strange little voice thing and and I’m thinking this just seems awkward.
[00:25:29] Rebekah: So getting into a couple specific plot points that changed, uh, I noticed that Paul’s first encounter with a worm was very different in terms of he was like safe in the ornithopter in the book when all of that happened when they were rescuing the spice miners, and in the film he like gets out of the ornithopter, he’s in the sand, he almost dies to the worm, like he almost gets captured in the desert, um, and like after he leaves the, the spacecraft, and so it’s basically just showing how he was affected by the spice, which is, Same, obviously book to film, like, well, I don’t know if it’s obvious or not.
It was the same from the book to film, I think.
[00:26:06] Josiah: I mean, I haven’t seen the 2021 film in the past couple months, and so I forgot that they do give Timothee Chalamet a little more agency in the Ornithopter scene, whereas I think in book and the 1984 film, it is a scene designed to make Duke Leto. Likeable.
Yes. It’s the scene right before he cares for the people more than he does, which is one of those. So inner voice things, but you know, that’s what the scene is designed for by Frank Herbert and David Lynch. But I think in the 2021 film, he makes it to be also Paul is likable too. And it makes the stakes higher and It gives you a natural, efficient way to show, oh, this is how spice affects him as a, as a foreshadowing for important future events.
Yeah,
[00:27:03] Rebekah: like a dramatically appropriate way. to show that. It felt reasonable that he would then start having his visions come up all of a sudden and it was just very, you know, it felt really intense. And I don’t know if it would have felt as intense if he was just sitting in the back of the ornithopter when you see it in the film.
Another thing that I had noticed that I thought was interesting, and I think this was omitted from both the movies in 1984 and 21, the dinner scene in the book was taken out entirely. So there’s this dinner scene, there’s a bunch of political, like, figures from Arrakis and, um, So it shows a lot of political and social dynamics throughout and it gives you this like sense of the massive societal impact of a lot of what’s going on and there’s some stuff going on with lady jessica and the other you know Duke Leto’s picking up on some stuff.
I thought it was a really interesting scene in the book, and I thought, Oh, I don’t remember this. And then I looked, you know, I watched the movie again, and I was like, Oh, it literally wasn’t there. Um, I think it was to focus more on Paul still, but it was interesting that that was completely taken out.
[00:28:09] Tim: That’s one of the things that I think I wish they would have included in the 2021 film.
[00:28:15] Josiah: Who’s at the dinner scene in the book? Are the Count Countess in the scene? They’re, they are. Okay. Well, they’re, I, I assume that their characters, Denny Vnu wanted to save for the next, for the sequel. Who else is at the dinner scene?
[00:28:28] Tim: Uh, leet Kines,
[00:28:30] Josiah: uh, is there. Oh, okay. Or the Reman diplomat, they keep
[00:28:34] Tim: saying, are you Freeman? Paul keeps asking that and said, well, I am the Emperor’s Plantologist. Uh, so technically Liet Kynes is, works for the emperor. On Arrakis, but we find out that they’re actually Fremen.
[00:28:51] Rebekah: You’ve got Lady Fenring and Count Hasimir Fenring.
So the Emperor’s associate and his Bene Gesserit wife. You have a guild bank rep from the Spacing Guild, um, and then several people that have like various functions on Arrakis that work there. One
[00:29:06] Tim: of them being the person who’s in charge of smuggling, which I find very interesting. Hey, I’m in charge of all the smuggling, you know, the illegal stuff.
And that’s my out in the
[00:29:19] Josiah: open title. A line that jumped out to me in the 1984 film is when Thufir Hawat, I think Thufir Hawat calls himself Master of Assassins. Yes, he does, which is strange. I forget why. Potential spoiler for the 2024 sequel, because we’re not sure if it’ll be brought up then, but within the plot that is covered by the 2021 film, in the book in 1984 film, it is Brought up that Lady Jessica, Paul’s mom, is actually an illegitimate child of the Baron Harkonnen.
And so Paul is his grandson, whether or not that is widely known is up for debate. It doesn’t really seem like that’s widely known, but in the film there is a brief mention where the Baron refers to Duke Leto as cousin, which I assume is a different reference, but it does connect the family lines. I think that this is a huge change.
I, it has to be. In the, in the sequel movie, cause in my head, and I don’t want to put words into Frank Herbert’s mouth because he literally explains everything. If he doesn’t say it outright on the page, maybe he, he probably wasn’t thinking about it, but I like to think that cause the, the, the Bene Gesserit bloodline conspiracy is Duke Leto will have a daughter that marries Baron Harkonnen’s son, or heir, Maybe because he doesn’t have a
[00:30:55] Speaker 6: son.
[00:30:56] Josiah: And the Bene Gesserit are mad at Lady Jessica for having a son so that this messes up the whole plan of everything. But then Lady Jessica was a Harkonnen. And so, so Baron Harkonnen. With Lady Jessica’s mom created the mother of the Kwisatz Haderach ends up being like the answer to the conspiracy, the prophecy sort of stuff.
I think that’s kind of a satisfying twist and it’s important for bloodlines matter, which, you know, I maybe have philosophical problems with that being such a vital part of sci fi fantasy is bloodline purity, but that is a part that is a huge part of the novel. So I’m surprised that it wasn’t in the 2021 film, but I haven’t counted it out that it might be.
In the 2024 film. Do you think it might be
[00:31:47] Tim: because that whole part of the book is complicated and may not be for the wider audience that the 2021 film and its sequel are probably looking toward?
[00:32:02] Josiah: People love dumb prophecies that are fulfilled in a slightly surprising way. I don’t like prophecies. That’s a wide audience thing, is that they love for a character to tell them what’s about to happen, and then it happens in a slightly surprising way.
[00:32:17] Donna: It’s Paul who pulls from visions of the future. who suggests that he and Jessica should walk unrhythmically through the desert in the book. So he, he brings that up. The 21 film reveals the sand walk through these educational films that you see him reviewing at the beginning of the movie. There’s several things that you see him studying or thinking on or considering for his, for his training.
I found this to be so bizarre. after seeing this, the 21 movie, after listening to the book, then I watched the 84 movie. So whether that was a good idea or not, it stands to be, stands to be debated. But after seeing the 21 movie where they do this very, it is very random walk, but the two of them, both of them are trained and can dance.
So they do this very random walk that was well choreographed to come out that way. In the 84 movie? They’re just, they make a big deal about it that they can’t run in a rhythm. But, they’re both just clumsily running through sand. And you, you have this build up like you’re gonna see them do something.
Which was the whole reason you’d have them mention it. And then, they just go plodding through sand in their horrible outfits. And hair and oh my gosh, we’re not there yet. I’m sorry, you just go on because I’ll get off on a tangent.
[00:33:49] Rebekah: I also hated this change. It was stupid and unnecessary. It’s one of the few things I don’t like about the 2021 film.
But I thought in the book it was so interesting that Paul knows innately because of his prescience, which is what they call like his premonitions and ability to connect with the future and connect the future and past and whatever. I thought it was such an interesting development of his character. It made it feel so like, Oh, it was like important.
It was vital. And in the movie, it’s like, Oh, so this is how you walk across the sand. Like it was nothing, but this was like a Fremen secret. It wasn’t something that all of the people in house of tradies learned and had done. You know, off
[00:34:32] Tim: worlders, it wasn’t an off world thing.
[00:34:35] Rebekah: Right, and I think that it was one of the things that you could have absolutely used that period of time in the earlier part of the film where he’s watching these little educational things to explain, I don’t know, how Spice makes It’s like a sentence about Spice and space travel that actually explains it.
There were other things you could have done with it, but I think it kind of speaks in my opinion to the fact that the newer movie, one of the failures I think of it, which there weren’t a lot and I, again, I love this movie, so I’m, I’m not complaining a lot, but I did not like that Paul’s visions felt like.
85 or 90%. Oh, there’s this girl I like. Like it felt cheap. I thought that in the book, it was so much more interesting that he like had this broad vision of the future and he was going to be a leader and he like saw all of these different people and he knew things innately and he, he was able to do things that no one should have been able to do.
But in the movie, it was like, Look, Zendaya’s gonna be in this movie. Look guys, Zendaya, he’s gonna like Zendaya. And it’s like, okay, I love her and I love like her portrayal of Chani, but like, it just felt cheap to me. So
[00:35:47] Josiah: that’s interesting. That’s interesting. Cause I think that speaks to a broader point of whether it was to emphasize Zendaya or because Denis Villeneuve did really want to emphasize the relationship between Paul and Chani.
If it’s the second one, I’m interested in if, if Denny Villeneuve is going to emphasize Paul and Chani in a way that maybe distracts from Paul eventually becoming a bad leader. Like, is it, uh, is it a distraction for him?
[00:36:24] Rebekah: But, and I also think that you dumb things down for audiences from a complex book to film.
The reality is me and everybody else. That’s like, you know, basic folk over here. We like love, like love stories work on camera. There’s a reason that like, there’s such a big part of most, though I would say, I would say a majority of films either center around or have a primary love story as part of it.
So I get it. But anyway. We’ll see. Um, another thing I had noticed that I thought was interesting that I didn’t catch at first because I was like this, is this in the book? Like I had to look it up. Uh, so Liet Kynes, who’s the planetologist in the book, uh, Liet Kynes is left to die in the desert by the Harkonnen and Sardaukar soldiers and kind of has this self reflection of his, the effects of his planetology and his father’s impact on Arrakis.
He hears his father speaking to him in his mind. He’s basically left out there. You know to starve or to you know Not starve to death, but be dehydrated to death. Uh, in the 2021 film, the character, Lea Kynes, is like the direct helper of Paul and Jessica getting away from the soldiers. She splits off, she’s captured, then the soldiers, uh, stab her.
And then as she’s lying on the ground, she starts rhythmically beating on the ground and ends up sacrificing her own life for those soldiers to die for the sake of who she calls her people, who are the Fremen. the whole book, Liet Kynes kind of book and movie, kind of debating like, am I Fremen? Like I am Fremen.
I’m accepted both places though. Like I’m also, I report to the Emperor, etc. And it kind of feels like her loyalties move back towards the Fremen in the movie. Um, Change wise, I liked the change. I, uh, I felt like it made me care more about that character. Whereas in the book, I remember when he got to the point of like this self reflection, I kind of was like, okay, when is this part over?
Like it, I actually did not find it all that interesting. So I really liked this.
[00:38:29] Donna: Yeah. I thought, I thought the change in character, both from a male to a female and the way they handled her. I agree. I thought it was Okay, so a lot of those I want to I prefer in most cases You stay true to the book in, in decisions like that.
But I thought this was a great win, great change.
[00:38:49] Rebekah: Just mentioned, since you mentioned the gender swap, like I do think Sharon Duncan Brewster did a great job of that. And I, I actually found Liet Kynes in the book to be a little bit obnoxious, felt kind of like a sword fight. Every time he was talking to like Duke Leto and even to Paul, it felt like weird, like, Posturing, but I think transitioning it to be a female character, like she just seemed like a strong female character versus someone who was trying to like posture against the leaders, if that makes sense.
[00:39:20] Tim: So another little change, Paul’s fight with Jameis plays out differently in the 21 film than it does in the book. Uh, the challenge comes almost immediately after they meet. Paul’s had visions of Jameis as a teacher and friend, which is a reminder that a lot of Paul’s visions are both sides, two different directions of this, of a decision, which he’s constantly faced with, you know, is it.
No galaxy wide jihad or is it peace? Um, is this person my friend or is this person that I kill? Is this a person I trust or is this a person I distrust? And his visions are kind of like that. But, um, he bests a Fremen. Uh, and in a way he kills, he kills himself. He kills the Paul Atreides. Uh, And he’s making the way for the quiz.
I had Iraq in the book. The challenge, uh, isn’t until a little, little bit later when Jessica and Paul are a little more familiar with the group, though, um, it is, it’s still pretty soon after they meet them, uh, Johnny and Paul’s relationship, uh, you know, At least has begun to form a little bit because she tells him some things about Jameis and how he fights, giving him an edge to maybe be able to beat him.
[00:40:40] Rebekah: Now, I will say, um, as the Kwisatz Haderach of this podcast, Josiah, since you have labeled yourself that way, who did you kill to kill the T. Josiah? Would it? What was that like for you? Yes,
[00:40:53] Josiah: uh, well, um, he was a very, very nice man, father of five, tax paying, charitable, uh, you know, stand up guy. How dare you?
Well, now taking care of his five kids, so joke’s on me.
[00:41:12] Donna: Well, why don’t you continue in our discussion then, uh, Cuisart? No, quiz
[00:41:17] Josiah: arts. Quiz arts! Well, I’m glad that we’re talking so much about Paul and Chani. Cause the book, the book is a little weird with Paul and Chani. And the 1984 film really waters them down.
I mean, I think the 2021 film is my favorite portrayal of Paul and Chani, but I’m interested in the conclusion of their story, to see if they really stick the landing.
[00:41:44] Donna: I don’t think that, I don’t think the 84 version waters them down. They do everything but just go completely naked and run across the sand.
Like it’s very, It’s the 84 builds a strong, like a, a strong bond that’s beyond, Oh, please, Paul, let me grab and kiss you. I mean, you might be saying, I guess what I
[00:42:07] Josiah: meant, I guess what I meant by waters down is Chani is only an object of romance for Paul. Whereas in the book, she’s barely an object of romance.
She’s, she’s a baby factory, but also she has some warrior aspects. She has some wisdom and knowledge. I mean, the last words in the novel are Lady Jessica talking to Chani. About concubines importance and how concubines in this world in this universe are often more important than the wives.
[00:42:42] Tim: But I think in the 2021 film, she is a warrior.
There are two aspects that she is a warrior and she is his love interest are more heavily emphasized than they are in the book. Um, and you know, the warrior part is a little less, less of a part of the 84 film. So. It is a little different.
[00:43:04] Josiah: So I’m just interested in how they pay it off in the sequel, but the 2021 film alters the circumstances of when Paul and Shawnee meet for the first time and the subsequent journey to Siege Tabor.
[00:43:18] Donna: The more we go through our episodes and the more I’m learning about book to film because I’ve said before I wasn’t a massive reader. before, um, but one thing I’m seeing that is a consistent, pretty consistent probe. When you move from book to film, ramping up a romantic relationship, It seems to be a thing for just the once a month or so I might go and see a movie person.
It draws them. It gives them more to look to look on or to consider. It’s that warm and fuzzy thing.
[00:43:52] Tim: The 2021 film stops as Paul and Jessica, um, following Paul’s duel to the death with Jamis as they’re accepted into the Fremen. And Paul determines to bring peace to Arrakis. Um, one of the things that’s, that’s part of the movie, but it’s, it’s less a part of the movie because we’re not hearing the inner voice.
Um, Paul is continually wondering, am I this Kwisatz Haderach, am I this person, uh, am I supposed to be this prophesied leader? And if so, one of the visions he sees is that he brings. war and death to the whole galaxy as jihad just burns through the galaxy. Because we don’t have the inner voice, we don’t hear that constant struggle, so somehow they have to have that in dialogue, and I haven’t heard a lot of it yet.
But in the previews for the next film, I think we do get more of that.
[00:44:55] Rebekah: Isn’t there a spot in the beginning when they’re with the Reverend Mother where, like, she says that he’s not the Kwisatz Haderach or something? Yeah. Haderach.
[00:45:05] Tim: She does. You can’t be. So I think that that’s interesting. You can’t be because, well, you can’t be because
[00:45:10] Josiah: you’re a mistake.
Yeah. Which I think is the most compelling part of the story. Yeah.
[00:45:15] Donna: Yeah, that he’s not supposed to be.
[00:45:17] Rebekah: So as we move into characterization, I found myself getting a little confused with the number of characters and their names and their purposes and all of this stuff. And so I actually used chat GPT to help me come up with a list of everyone with their purposes.
I also have lists of their actors in the 1984 and 2021 films, um, which I thought would be helpful. So I’m going to give you the. Very briefest rundown. So we start with House Atreides. We’ve got Duke Leto and Lady Jessica are like the head of House Atreides. Jessica’s obviously a Bene Gesserit. Uh, she is a concubine of Leto.
So she and Paul’s Duke Leto did not get married, which was a purposeful decision. They kind of nod to it very briefly in the new movie, but, uh, it wasn’t explained as much as it was in the book. And you got their son, Paul Atreides. He’s obviously the main character and is going to become a leader. Uh, they also meet with Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, who’s a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother.
She’s not really important to the rest of, at least, um, the 2021 film after the scene at the beginning with the box. Then you’ve got other members of their house, which include Thufir Hawat, which is a mentat, which is essentially a human computer. Gurney and Duncan, both of whom are essentially soldiers, for lack of a better term.
And then you’ve got Dr. Yueh, who is the, uh, the souk doctor for House Atreides. Yueh is the one that, uh, sort of betrays them, but really is trying to kill, uh, the Baron of House Harkonnen. So getting into House Harkonnen, you got Baron Vladimir, who he’s the really big, fat, gross guy played by Stellan SkarsgÃ¥rd, um, in the newer movie.
He’s the head of House Harkonnen. His nephew, Glossu Rabban, who’s known as the Beast Rabban, is led by Dave Bautista. By the way, super hard for me not to see him as his character in the Marvel universe. Yeah, all I like, I had to look past Drax, it was so weird. There’s also a nephew of Baron Harkonnen, Fade raha, who was not featured in 2020 one’s film, but is going to be a primary character in the 2024 sequel.
Um, then there’s a Minta to Baron, uh, harken and, uh, Pieter Dre. And he plays a small part in the film, but was pretty major in the, the book. He’s also a mentat. Um, he dies in this film. Uh, then you’ve got three characters. from the Emperor’s Court, Emperor Shaddam, Princess Irulan, and Count Hasmir Fenring.
All of those were left out of the 2021 film. And then going back to additional characters around the Fremen, you’ve got Chani, who’s obviously Paul’s love interest played by Zendaya, Stilgar, who’s the leader of the Fremen that the like Fremen group that Paul and his mother Jessica get in with. Jamis is another member of that group.
He’s the one that Paul kills after being challenged. And then you got Dr. Liet Kynes, the imperial planetologist. They call Kynes something different in the newer movie. I remember in the book, the Kynes character made a big deal about the fact that he was a planetologist. That was his title. And he is also a Fremen leader and kind of walks Both in the Emperor’s court and the Fremen court, so.
[00:48:44] Josiah: And played by a female in the 2021 film.
[00:48:47] Rebekah: Right. I hope that that made it clearer because I genuinely, I didn’t know who Princess Irulan was basically for the entire book that I’ve read so far. Which I think is fine. I still didn’t realize it was the Emperor’s daughter. I think it’s normal. Yeah, and then there’s one additional character that we don’t know if she will or will not appear ever, but Paul has a younger sister who I believe I’ve read in the book where I’m at yet, correct?
I don’t think she’s been mentioned. No, I think her name’s Aaliyah. Yeah,
[00:49:15] Josiah: I think, spoiler for the sequel, but I think there’s a time jump in the third part of the first novel.
[00:49:21] Donna: There’s no way they can do this
[00:49:24] Josiah: without it. I I think it’s funny that you say, Rebecca, that it’s so many characters you couldn’t keep straight for me, my main thing, especially when I saw June 2021 for the first time before I read the book and before I rewatched the 1984 film, I had watched that a long time ago, but, uh, my main criticism, my main problem with it was it felt like such a product of its time that we’ve moved past it in a certain way, You know, I’m a big Game of Thrones books fan.
And so, Dune, having been one of the first ever stories to have this complex of a political intrigue narrative on a sci fi level, Well, now we have Game of Thrones and all of the stories it’s inspired Game of Thrones in its 40 characters Oh in the first chapter, there’s 40 characters
[00:50:19] Rebekah: Yeah I had the realization as I was trying to go through this part of my problem That I should have read this one from the physical book when I own because yeah, I see the names It’s so much more helpful hearing them was harder to capture.
[00:50:31] Josiah: I can see that. It’s a hard to spell them in your mind’s eye I Which would help. There’s so much political intrigue in Game of Thrones. It makes Dune’s political intrigue look like it was written by a 12 year old in 2021. The political intrigue is, Oh, there’s two rival houses and the emperor is secretly supporting the other one.
One of them is really popular and good. And one of them is really rich and bad. I mean, that’s, that’s the depth of the plot of Dune.
[00:51:05] Donna: Yeah, moving into characterization, I think overall, the 84 film made the main characters so outlandish in appearance that they’re, I don’t know if it was to just, I don’t know if Lynch was trying to make this statement of some kind about the appearance of them, but it, it just did not, it didn’t help me.
It was so distracting. The mint hats eyebrows. I said, you know, we’re so crazy. They weren’t just bushy eyebrows, but, um, They were super
[00:51:42] Tim: bushy eyebrows and the, uh, the staining on their lip looked just like they needed to wipe their face off or something.
[00:51:48] Donna: Yes. Right. Um, but the other one that was frustrating for me, besides the disgustingness of Baron Harkonnen in the 84 film.
Couldn’t even look at him. You can’t look at him. He’s so gross. Oh, yeah. But it was funny, I will say, when, uh, when in the 84 film, when she runs up. And to kill him and she somebody they pull these tubes out of his chest and he starts alert. It’s
[00:52:16] Tim: the second. It’s the second half.
[00:52:19] Donna: What’s in the 84 film? I saw.
I’m sorry. I’m sorry. We’re good. I don’t. Oh, yeah. Fine. Okay. Doesn’t matter. Besides his grossness, but the character that was even More distressing than the Mintats was Jessica, the scene where she walks out and she’s walking across with the guy with the diamond on his head.
[00:52:42] Josiah: Yui.
[00:52:44] Donna: She’s got on a gown, literally straight out of Gone with the Wind.
I’m ready to hear Prissy go, Miss Scarlet, Miss Scarlet, I ain’t never birthed no baby.
[00:52:54] Josiah: Rebecca, it takes place in the past. I
[00:52:58] Donna: hate things said in the past. Anyway, they roll her hair back in these rollers up around her head. They’ve got this high neck dress with the lace. It, there’s nothing futuristic.
science fiction y. So then when I think about the 2021 movie and I see the simple things that they put Rebecca Ferguson in as Lady Jessica, I was like, Oh, this is, this looks right. So the style, again, styling and
[00:53:29] Tim: There were some real misses for the 1984 movie. Yeah. Um, those kinds of things. And, and the audience responded that way to it as well.
I think Paul in the 84 movie, looks too old but doesn’t act as mature as he looks. I think Timothee Chalamet is much easier to see in an older teen becoming an adult and it works better in the 21 film. The 21 film does cut out a lot of stuff though about mentats who are Um, passively powerful in the book, um, they are basically the replacement for computers because AI has been banned, um, 10, 000 years before, but there’s not really any reference to that.
And you don’t see a lot of it in the 21 film. You only kind of know that if you’ve read the book,
[00:54:23] Donna: Jessica’s relationship with Paul. In the 84 film, she’s more distant from him. And then she begins to almost become afraid of him. It’s just not a relationship where I’d say, Oh, that’s great that Paul’s mother is so encouraging to him and that she’s, she’s for him.
She’s behind him. Ferguson and Chalamet doing their chemistry thing. It works and it’s, it flows well and It doesn’t seem cringy or you don’t think that she is too doting or whatever.
[00:54:52] Josiah: Well, I think, uh, an interesting change that I think works for the fact that Deni Villeneuve is doing two films for one novel is that Faye de Ralfa Harkonnen, nephew to the Baron is left out of the 2021 film.
He’s going to play a much bigger role in the 2024 sequel played by Elvis Presley himself, Austin Butler. Do you know who played, who played that character
[00:55:20] Tim: in the 84 film?
[00:55:22] Josiah: Fade Ralpha. Oh, Sting. Sting.
[00:55:24] Tim: Yep. Another musician.
[00:55:25] Josiah: In the book, on the other hand, Fade Ralpha is introduced early in the plot with his uncle and brother Bistroban.
First of all, and I know I have the 2021 film in my head, but I don’t really find that Bistroban slash Drax and Sting’s Faye Dralpha really need to be two different people.
[00:55:48] Rebekah: I agree.
[00:55:49] Josiah: So I’m, I’m glad on a few counts that Denis Villeneuve separated them and, and kept Faye Dralpha for the second film. It also, this goes the same for the Emperor and the Princess Irulan, Being saved for the second film that it makes it feel more like a sequel instead of a part two to the same novel.
I think it makes it feel more like a justified sequel.
[00:56:13] Rebekah: I like that. Also related to the sequel, Thufir Hawat, who is the Mentat to Duke Leto, he plays a fairly minimal role in the film. He’s kind of there several times. but he’s not quite as prominent in the plot as he was in the book. He was very prominent in the book.
And so I did read one of the articles that said they think that his character is going to take a larger role in the 2024 sequel, which I think would be interesting. Um, but I did like where they put in the 2021 film, the scene where he missed the, uh, The attempt on Paul’s life. He missed that and he immediately tries to resign to Duke Leto, which I thought was a really good, very brief, but like effective portrayal of the type of character he is.
He’s a very loyal, good person. And then that also plays into the fact that Duke Leto is a very benevolent leader, um, especially compared to the 1984 film. But I really like what a good and strong and benevolent leader he is. Made to be.
[00:57:17] Josiah: Well, Rebecca, don’t forget Thufir Hawat is the master of assassins.
[00:57:24] Rebekah: Yes. So he
[00:57:26] Josiah: should have been able to stop it. Yeah.
[00:57:29] Tim: The 2021 film also portrays the Sardaukar a little differently. Um, in the 84 film and in the movie or in the book, they are They only know that they’re Sardaukar because of how they fight. Uh, they’re very hidden within the Harkonnen, uh, army. But the movie doesn’t, the 21 movie doesn’t hide them.
And just, they wear their uniforms and they’re, they’re openly part of this. So the, the intrigue with the We’re not certain that the Emperor’s involved, but we think he is in the 21 film. It’s like, yeah, he’s involved.
[00:58:08] Rebekah: Which is probably partly because the second, like the sequel, there’s probably gonna be a lot of other big reveal moments.
Yeah. And they saved a lot of those reveals, and so that one just wasn’t all that important to reveal early on. Also, I will say for those of you who, like me, might have been a little bit, let’s say, confused, I believe this, the way that it was written was the emperor had, uh, taken the Harkonnens off of Arrakis, A, because they really were mismanaging spice production and they were like losing money, but B, one of the things I read was throughout the rest of the books and some different things.
I don’t know where this all comes from, but the emperor also was concerned because both of their houses were getting so strong. And he basically knew that he’d be setting them up for a war, especially helping the Harkonnens like attack them. And so his goal was to weaken both houses so that he, as the emperor could keep power farmer hold on his ability to power.
[00:59:03] Donna: Looking at The DATs for these movies, Dad and I found some very interesting correlations to the way things went, especially in 84, I will say. The book was released in August of sixty five movie released
[00:59:19] Tim: serialized, huh? It was originally serialized. Did it
[00:59:23] Donna: serialized? That explains the books. And then book form came out in 1965.
Um, the movie released. We’ve said this quite a bit. Eighty four. It came out in December, on December 3rd in one theater, and then like a week later, uh, yeah, about a week. Week, 10 days later, it was released in WA to wider audience in the us and then in 2021, it was released in the US on October 22nd. The book writing on Good reads was 4.6.
The Rotten Tomatoes in ID4, 44%.
[01:00:01] Tim: The original publisher of the Dune book, the first Dune book, was an automotive manual for how to fix cars. That’s the only things they had published up to that point. Oh my goodness. Repair manuals. That is so weird. It is. Um, somebody had. Uh, had talked to to Herbert and, uh, they were part of the company and they said, I think it’s worth the risk.
And so
[01:00:24] Donna: the IMDb rating, the 1984 film, they gave 6. 3 out of 10. In the 2021 film, they gave 8 out of 10, and I missed the Rotten Tomatoes in 2021, it was an 83%, so really fresh, really, I mean, they really start differences in these, I, I was fascinated, so cost and box office, production cost in 19, Ad four was $40 million.
Uh, the 2021 production cost was 165 million opening weekend, the 84 film, $6 million, which I’m sure was a massive buzzkill for them. I’m sure it was devastating. I assume that’s not the single theater. No, it was, that’s when it opened fully. Okay. Open, yeah. Yeah. The 2021 film. It opened for 41 million, still not really hot, right?
[01:01:15] Rebekah: Well, for 2021 though, for that was like when COVID like it was released during one of the biggest COVID waves that we had. So I think that 41 million is actually pretty impressive. And it was, yeah, it
[01:01:29] Josiah: was released on streaming at the same time.
[01:01:32] Tim: Oh,
[01:01:32] Josiah: it was one of those. Wow. From what I was reading. Denny Villeneuve was worried.
He didn’t want to release it on streaming, but, uh, cause the success of this film determined whether the second film would get made. And so he was worried, but I think the execs at the studio said, we will take streaming numbers into account when considering the success of the film.
[01:01:57] Donna: So this is where it gets a little crazy.
So USA Canada gross for the whole thing. The 84 film, 30 million. So it didn’t even hit their production cost at all. USA Canada 2021 film, 108 million. Didn’t hit their production cost. Of course, we just talked about streaming, right? The worldwide numbers for the 1984 film, and I looked at this on several places, 54, 000,
[01:02:22] Tim: almost nothing.
[01:02:24] Donna: Oh, my makes no sense at all. And I added, I looked down. I was like, I can’t was it just not released internationally. Have a wide release, but the 2021 film. Remember, USA Canada grossed 108 million, the worldwide gross 294 million.
[01:02:41] Josiah: Yeah, yeah, I think that it was just released at a bad time, and it probably wasn’t released on streaming at the same time internationally.
[01:02:48] Donna: So the total for them, the 1984 film, was just short of 31 million. And the 2021 film went to 402 went to 402 million.
[01:02:59] Tim: A lot of times we’ll talk about special effects in movies that are especially movies that are older and things like that. And I think everybody can agree that the special effects in the 1984 movie.
We’re very poor. So I was curious what else was released in the years leading up to that. That might that might show where the technology was starting with 1977 Star Wars. A new hope. Um, then Star Trek, the motion picture, then Star Wars. Five, Empire Strikes Back, Star Trek The Wrath of Khan, E. T. The Extraterrestrial, Tron in 1982, Star Wars 6, which was, uh, The Return of the Jedi.
Dune’s production budget was four, basically 40 million. The first Star Wars was 12 million. Star Trek The Motion Picture, which was supposed to be way overblown on their budget. Was only 35 million. The next Star Wars was 23 million. The next Star Trek was, um, 12 million. E. T. was 10. 5 million. Tron, which was super heavy on special effects, was 17 million.
Star Wars 6 is the first of these movies that hit the 40 million mark for production costs. And by the time you’ve got the third Star Wars movie, All of those special effects are amazing, the lightsabers and the walkers and you got all sorts of space fights and things like that. Oh,
[01:04:37] Donna: and sand people and Wookiees.
And then
[01:04:40] Tim: you have Dune, a 40 million dollar budget. For special in that whole thing in that day should have brought us the kind of special effects that we saw in Star Trek and Star Wars and things that we look at and say, even today, a lot of the effects hold up. The shields. What did you think about those shields in 1984?
The fighting shields. Oh
[01:05:08] Josiah: my goodness. Can’t believe we haven’t talked about them yet.
[01:05:12] Rebekah: They were fascinating. Is that a good word? Fascinating?
[01:05:16] Tim: It was a little bit, it looked a little bit like playing Minecraft with clear blocks. I mean, it was
[01:05:23] Josiah: unacceptable. Yeah.
[01:05:26] Rebekah: Really? I didn’t think it was that bad. I thought it was an interesting take on it.
[01:05:30] Josiah: You couldn’t see it. I didn’t see it as awful. Okay. It was blocks. And how often did those self shields come back in the movie? I was amazed. I was like an hour and a half into the movie. And I thought, when’s the last time I’ve saw a self shield.
[01:05:45] Tim: Yeah. You, they said you can’t use them because the vibration brings the worms.
So you can only use them when you’re in that protected place. Yeah. Why introduce it? Well, because they learned how to fight with them, but then they had to learn how to fight a whole different way.
[01:06:03] Josiah: I think that’s one of the more interesting parts of the Dune world building for me that you have this sci fi setting where technology has gotten so good that no one uses guns and firearms, right?
But I cannot look at those, those blocks, the, the Minecraft Tron blocks that completely obscure people. Like, who am I looking at? Am I looking at Paul and Gurney? I can’t tell which is which. And I can’t
[01:06:31] Tim: tell if their arm is around this or, you know, they’re, yeah.
[01:06:34] Donna: Some things about Frank Herbert, and I, I like to try to see who the writer is, who the, who the novelist is, and get a picture of, you know, him.
And a couple of things I found out about him, um, he had a regular use of, uh, magic mushrooms, I think is the term they were called then. He said his, his mind was stimulated more. When he’s using them, um, the, the, the Bene Gesserits, he said, was influenced by tales of Maria Sabina and the sacred mushroom cults of Mexico.
It sounds like
[01:07:12] Tim: drug use may have had something to do with some of the interesting parts.
[01:07:17] Donna: Interestingly, they did film the film in Mexico City. The, uh, spores that allowed the bending of space or the tripping. in the movie and the giant sand worms were like maggots digesting mushrooms. I mean he ties a lot of stuff in the the eyes of the Fremen even are is he thought about the cerulean blue of the psilocybin I think is how you say it.
He was a huge, he was a huge proponent of environmental awareness, and he had been, uh, quoted to say he wanted Dune to be like an environmental awareness handbook. And so writing, he saw Dune as where, where the world could go.
[01:08:01] Josiah: I think Dune is a very interesting story, but anyone who understands the plot of the third book onward, That it doesn’t work as a movie franchise.
I, I think that Denny Villeneuve has the right idea. He might adapt the second novel into a third film if the second one does well. I think, I think that that’s not a bad idea. Well,
[01:08:25] Tim: the fourth, the fourth one is God Emperor of Dune.
[01:08:29] Josiah: Yeah, can I tell you a tiny bit about that? It’s where Paul Atreides becomes half human, half sandworm, and rules for three and a half thousand years over the galaxy.
Yeah, that’s real easily, easily grasped. You think that’ll work on a film?
[01:08:46] Donna: Do that with Timothee Chalamet.
[01:08:48] Josiah: How have we not talked about the weirding way? I think that’s like the second biggest change. In the 1984 film that they just invented, and it’s not at all in the book. Yeah,
[01:09:00] Tim: well, in the book, they do talk about teaching, teaching the fighters the weirding way.
But I think it’s actually from the Bene Gesserit that they get that. It is on the train.
[01:09:14] Rebekah: I was going to say they call weirding like in a newer movie. The one of the Fremen is like, has Jessica and then she takes him over and he’s like, why didn’t you tell me you were a weirding woman?
[01:09:27] Josiah: Oh, that’s what it is.
That’s what it is. They completely change. They completely change what weirding is because weirding is a thing. It’s, it’s just the voice, isn’t it? I think so. And in the, in the 1984 film, they make it into a weapon. We have weapons now.
[01:09:44] Donna: Oh, and another one on the same line with that is, uh, her, Jessica and Paul have hand, they have a sign language between them and I loved that because you just, it’s just this Me too.
Okay, think of how creative that is, instead of the person just standing there static on the screen and you hear a voice reading out their thoughts. And I loved when she would look at him and she would just be like, your pitch, your pitch is not right. Or, you know, she or her thoughts, he’s not there yet.
He’s not ready to use that voice, you know,
[01:10:21] Speaker 6: he’s
[01:10:21] Donna: like, I’m Timothee Chalamet. I can use whatever voice I want woman. So, as we’re wrapping up, I found, as I was reading through a lot of. Dune trivia about just about everything. I realized that, um, the series, while the original movie was not a hit, obviously, from what we found, the, the book, and I’m sure the series as well, because it does have a cult following.
It has been used for the basis of a ton of board games, role playing games, and video games. Are you familiar with any of these?
[01:10:57] Rebekah: So, I have not played any of the video games, although I looked at the article you were linking to the Wikipedia page, and I’m actually kind of interested in the MMO that was announced that has not been released, so I might.
I don’t know. I might like try that. I did Hogwarts legacy, which is not an MMO, but it’s, it is like a kind of an action anyway, it’s a game sort of in that genre. And so that sounds interesting. However, I have played Dune Imperium and I played it with Josiah. Oh, the last time I was in Nashville.
[01:11:31] Josiah: Yeah, the game, well, to disparage it a little, the game pretends to be a deck building game, but it’s not really, it’s, it’s an engine building game and, uh, how there’s like ways that you can prepare yourself for the end of round battle and whoever wins the end of round battle gets the best prize.
And whoever gets the most victory points at the end wins. And there’s a bunch of different ways to get that, but it’s, it’s one of those complex tabletop games. I enjoy it. One of the things I like about it is that if you go to a space, usually another person can’t go to that space. That’s the main strategy of picking in what order you do your things.
So there’s a lot of little bits of strategy.
[01:12:16] Rebekah: But if it tells you how much I enjoyed it, I immediately added it to my Christmas wishlist.
[01:12:20] Josiah: Ooh, okay, okay. What is an MMO?
[01:12:23] Rebekah: Massive Multiplayer Online Game.
[01:12:25] Josiah: I think World of Warcraft is like the headline of, this is what an MMO is. So, I guess I can start with my final verdict on Dune the book versus the 1984 movie, the book is better.
I think David Lynch had a lot of fun making it look weird and I don’t hate every decision they made. I mean, I don’t mind the eyebrows. I think it’s appropriate for Baron Harkonnen to be disgusting, but it, a lot of it did end up looking cheap. The, uh, the inner narration was just unacceptable and I didn’t like the special effects either for, well, I, I liked some of them, but I didn’t, some of the bad special effects were very, very, very bad for us.
The 2021 film goes, I think I mentioned earlier that Denny Villeneuve is such a great filmmaker that Dune does not deserve. He made Dune so cool. He cast cool people. He made the visual language of the film very somber and chic and modern. I think, I thought there were some scenes that might have run the risk of being cliche or over explaining in the 2021 film, but You know, you learn stuff through those scenes and you’re like, well, I don’t know how else I could have learned that.
I think the 2021 film is certainly the best film adaptation possible. The book is so unique. There’s not another book like it that has this weird omniscient perspective. You know, character motivations are show are told instead of shown, but there’s something about it that that’s very unique, and it’s a style that is very actively chosen.
I mean, I enjoyed the movie. I’m going to say the 2021 film was better than the book
[01:14:16] Donna: for me. Um, I enjoyed the book. I think I said a little earlier I had reservations about reading it. Cause I thought, no, is it going to get sci fi form that goes to a techie thing? Then I found out that’s not really the direction that Herbert was going anyway.
And then it was intriguing. It, it, it held me. Um, uh, it kept me interested. It kept me wanting to know and wanting to focus, so I followed up the 84 movie. I mean, I made it clear it just was a huge miss for me. It, it was overdone, visually, but not overdone. Like it was overdone to an, to the point of ugly for me, not in the right ways.
Right. So definitely the book was much better than the 1984 movie for me. The 2021 movie, um, casting, I love the people he casted anyway, and they delivered. I agree with you. He made choices that elevated this to something that a lot of people could watch and love that aren’t science fiction, that aren’t into this genre of film.
So to me, if you can do that, that’s a huge hit. I’ll say it’s gonna edge out the book, but they’re pretty close to even the how I felt about the book and the 2021 movie. It’s, it’s pretty close to even.
[01:15:41] Tim: Well, I’ll go next. The, um, the book was far better than the 1984 movie. Um, with music by Toto, it reminded me more of the Flash Gordon movie of a similar time, and, uh, those were very campy movies, um, but the 2021 film, um, I think, I think it was very good.
When I first watched the 1984 film, I was told that it’s not nearly as good as the book, and I had never read the book until recently. So, uh, reading the book, there’s a lot of detail and a lot of things that go on in the book. I still think Frank Herbert is a, was a little Yeah, a little off the book is better for detail, but, uh, the 21 movie makes makes the story palatable for a much larger audience and does a very good job at so in this one.
I think I would say. I like the new 2021 movie better.
[01:16:46] Rebekah: I haven’t even finished the 1984 movie. I will finish it before we do our next episode, just to see how they do the conclusion in the same way. Um, what I’ve seen of it, I’m just kind of like it, even for movies of it’s time, like even putting it in the time period, not really something I think I’ll probably ever watch again once I’ve done it just to see it for the pod.
Um, Love the 2021 movie. I’m going to be honest. I went into the 2021 dune thinking I’m not going to like this. It’s the type of movie that I’m not a big fan of. Like sometimes, like I love simple sci fi and like, um, young adult sci fi, but I struggled to get into like really complicated sci fi. I actually liked the fact that they didn’t get into the technology a lot.
And some of those things, um, But I ended up loving the movie when we went to see it and was really engaged with it. I’ve been listening to the book in audio book format. I actually, I know dad had some problems with it. I like the really overproduced audio book in this case. I think I would like it when you guys told me that it had multiple readers, meaning like each person has their own reader’s voice.
I will say there are two readers of the audio book that I recognize their voices and I can’t figure out who they are yet.
[01:18:05] Speaker 7: Is I
[01:18:05] Rebekah: think they’re actors that I recognize or one of them is like an audiobook reader that read another book that I like. Um, but anyway, it’s just interesting to me that. Like the audio book feels very engaging.
I haven’t finished it cause I’ve been trying to like read just enough so that I can like consume the part that the 2021 film was based on and then kind of do the same for um, the one that’s about to come out. I think that, um, in general, I liked the beginning of the book so much. Like I felt really engaged with it.
I’ve had a little bit of a hard time. Connecting with it. And if I’m being honest, I think it’s really coming down for me to like, hear it and like trying to keep track of who the characters are, their roles, what’s a Mentat, what’s a Bene Gesserit, what is the Prescience, what is the Muad’Dib, what is the uh, Kwisatz Haderach, like I’m trying to keep track of all these very odd terms.
And so I think that if I were to like grab the physical book, it would be a little bit easier to like, Engage with that a little bit more. I would say right now, because I haven’t finished the book, I would put the 2021 film and the book on the same level at the moment. The films might edge it out for me if I continue to have trouble with keeping track of what’s going on in the book.
Now, I think the fact that I, Created this chart of characters and like, I feel a little bit of a better handle on some of what’s going on just as we were preparing to record this, I might feel a little bit differently. Um, like I might enjoy the book more because I have less trouble keeping up with it, but I would say they definitely are there for me.
1984 book is clearly better than the film. It could, I think it depends on how he wraps it with the second movie. I’m also a little bit trepidatious of the idea of doing a third movie from everything I’ve heard about Dude Messiah, but, um, but we’ll see. So that’s kind of
[01:20:00] Donna: where I’m at with it. Josiah was talking about, um, Villeneuve being better.
It, it reminded me too of like, Looking at Justice League and then seeing Zack Snyder’s take on Justice League and how he took the, took the film, did not redo the film, but retooled everything in appearance and things like that. And I think those, those things really, they really affect me visually, visual things like that affect me.
And I think it’s the emotion they bring. So,
[01:20:36] Rebekah: hey, thanks for listening. If you loved this episode, please leave us a five star rating or review on your favorite podcast app. It helps us a ton. You can find us. Most places at Book is Better Pod For feedback, future episode ideas or to suggest IPS you’d like us to cover, email us.
This book is better pod at gmail. com. Our next episode in two weeks, we’ll be reviewing the brand new Dune II movie. So make sure you watch that before listening to the episode and until then, have a great day.
[01:21:06] Josiah: Yeet. Skirt. Yeet. Skirt.