S04E02 — The Odyssey

SPOILER ALERT: This episode and transcript below contains major spoilers for The Odyssey.

Apple Podcasts • Spotify • Audible • Amazon Music • iHeart • Pandora • YouTube

Featuring hosts Timothy Haynes, Donna Haynes, Rebekah Edwards, and T. Josiah Haynes.

Baby listeners, we have THOUGHTS.

We’re digging into the bizarre, brutal, occasionally cannibalistic epic poem and Nolan’s massive adaptation, including why Matt Damon’s Odysseus feels like a completely different man, whether Tom Holland was wildly miscast, the Circe scene we absolutely loved, the deeply depressing dog on the dung pile, and why kicking said dog means you obviously deserve to visit Hades first.

We also read four different translations of The Odyssey, which means we technically all read the same book while somehow not reading the same book at all. And after nearly 3,000 years of waiting, we finally answer the question Homer was definitely asking: Is the book actually better?

Final Verdicts

If you haven’t listened to the episode yet, we recommend waiting to read our verdicts. (But you’re probably grown, so do what you want!)

The book gives us a selfish, scheming Odysseus trapped in a magical world where the gods treat humans like pawns; Christopher Nolan gives us a guilt-ridden Matt Damon desperately trying to get home.

Donna: The film was better.
– Book Score: 7/10
– Film Score: 8/10

Rebekah: The film was better.
– Book Score: 8.5/10
– Film Score: 8/10

Josiah: The film was better.
– Book Score: 7.9/10 for enjoyment; 9.5–10/10 for its historical/cultural impact
– Film Score: 8.9/10

Tim: The book was better.
– Book Score: 8.1/10
– Film Score 7.9–8/10

Other Episodes You’ll Love

Full Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Rebekah: So what did you do today, Dad? Mm-hmm. 

[00:00:01] Tim: Um, I graded papers Somebody- I graded lots 

[00:00:06] Josiah: of papers … please, please, anybody in this room, if anybody is here, get these beggars out of here. Okay, 

[00:00:20] Rebekah: Edward Cullen. I 

[00:00:20] Tim: think my son may have- … blown a gasket. Oh. 

[00:00:27] Rebekah: That’s good. 

[00:00:28] Josiah: And then the new intro song- Hey … which is doo, diddle-doo, doo, doo, diddle-doo, doo, diddle, doodle, doo, doo, doo, doo, diddy, doo-doo, doo, diddle-doo, diddle, diddle, diddle, diddle, doo, doo, doo.

[00:00:39] Rebekah: Hey, welcome to the Book is Better podcast. We are a family of four reviewing book to film adaptations. This is a clean podcast. We talk about heavy stuff sometimes though, so this episode is probably not one you’re gonna wanna watch or listen to around the kiddos. However, uh, we will keep it clean, as much as we can, you know?

[00:00:56] Uh, spoiler alert for this episode, we are discussing The Odyssey. In fact, Christopher Nolan’s Odyssey, and I do wanna be clear that it’s Christopher Nolan’s Odyssey, and you’ll understand a little more about what I mean as we get into this episode. Uh, we are going to spoil it, so if you have not read it in the…

[00:01:14] When was this written? Uh, like, 

[00:01:16] Donna: a, a thou- 

[00:01:16] Rebekah: It was probably 

[00:01:18] Josiah: written down in the eighth century 

[00:01:19] Donna: BC. 

[00:01:20] Josiah: 3,000 years 

[00:01:21] Donna: ago. I know this. It’s like eighth century, yeah. 

[00:01:23] Josiah: It’s about 

[00:01:23] Rebekah: 3,000 years ago. Okay, so if you haven’t… Uh, if you had not had enough time since the eighth century BC- … to read The Odyssey, you should get on that, and I also am confused as to why you clicked on the episode to begin with.

[00:01:35] Uh, but- But also- … Christopher Nolan’s The Odyssey did come out recently, so if you’re waiting to watch that, just give it a second. 

[00:01:42] Josiah: Yeah. Maybe you can just watch the movie. 

[00:01:46] Rebekah: Yeah. Maybe, maybe just watch the movie. I don’t know Yeah, it’s fine … maybe it’s, like, the right decision or whatever. It’s fine. So- 

[00:01:51] Donna: If you like eighth century Greek poetry, it’s, you should go 

[00:01:54] Rebekah: for it.

[00:01:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that it was funny, I found out recently that the first modern novel wasn’t written until, like, the end of the 1800s. Mm-hmm. It’s just not a format people used, so. 

[00:02:09] Tim: Right. Yeah. 

[00:02:09] Rebekah: No wonder the Bible’s the most popular book in the whole world. It has prose and interesting stories, and then there’s The Odyssey.

[00:02:17] It’s like the two interesting things that ever were written before the 1800s, I guess. I don’t know how that works, but- 

[00:02:22] Tim: Do you want me to give you another factoid with that, with those two things? 

[00:02:25] Rebekah: Always. 

[00:02:26] Tim: The Bible has vastly- Mm … more original or closer to the original copies available than The Odyssey.

[00:02:39] Rebekah: That’s pretty cool. So today’s fun fact: which power of the little G gods would you most want to possess? Mostly ’cause I’ve just been watching a lot of Avengers films, um, I think that I want to be Zeus because I would love to call down lightning from Heaven. Sounds really cool. 

[00:03:00] Donna: Uh, I think I would choose…

[00:03:03] It’s Athena is love, right? Is that correct? Athena 

[00:03:07] Tim: is wisdom and war. 

[00:03:09] Donna: Hmm. Who’s love? 

[00:03:10] Tim: Aphrodite. 

[00:03:12] Donna: Aphrodite. Well, it’s a cooler name. Mm-hmm. I like that better. I’ll- It is. 

[00:03:15] Rebekah: Aphrodite is a cool name … 

[00:03:16] Donna: I would like the, the power to, to control love, ’cause there’s a lot of people I would never in two million millennia put together that somehow got together and…

[00:03:30] Rebekah: That is literally the least romantic reason for anyone- … ever wanting to control the power of love that it’s ever happened. So- Oh … good job. Okay … you came up with… You did it. You did it. 

[00:03:40] Josiah: Mm-hmm. Well, then I’ll go for Poseidon, because I would not abandon- Mm … Percy Jackson. 

[00:03:49] Tim: I found one. Hermes. 

[00:03:53] Josiah: Aw. He’s a good one.

[00:03:54] Tim: He’s the messenger. Aw, hun. 

[00:03:56] Josiah: His son was the bad guy in Percy Jackson. 

[00:04:00] Tim: That’s very likely, but Hermes himself- Mm … was supposed to be Zeus’s son. 

[00:04:05] Josiah: You know what? Poseidon has dominion over horses. So I’m Poseidon, and I have all the horsepower. Horsepowers.

[00:04:20] Rebekah: I did read a list of things somebody posted yesterday that was like things that sound more interesting than they actually are, and one of the answers was horsepower. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, like one 

[00:04:32] Tim: horsepower. How about we look at a plot summary- Oh, yeah, Dad, you should read it … of this ancient Greek- Yes

[00:04:38] mythology. 

[00:04:38] Donna: Plot summary, when? 

[00:04:40] Tim: This ancient- … poem by Homer. 

[00:04:45] Rebekah: That’s not how you say his name. 

[00:04:47] Tim: Who knows? Do you speak Greek? Ancient Greek? 

[00:04:50] Rebekah: I, in fact, do not. I, you know. 

[00:04:53] Tim: Odysseus, the hero of the story, kind of, journeys from his victory in the Trojan War back home to Ithaca, not that far away. But it takes a distressingly long time.

[00:05:11] Odys- Why? Odysseus has experienced trials and triumphs on the, his odyssey while his wife Penelope and son Telemachus fight off suitors in a massive power grab, holding out hope for many years, 20 years, that Odysseus is still breathing, still headed home. But is he? What prevented him? That is the story of The Odyssey.

[00:05:45] So what did we like about this adaptation that’s not different than- Mm … any of the multiple versions we listened to or read? 

[00:05:55] Josiah: Mm. I like how big and long it was. Well… It was epic. It took a long time- Yeah … for him to get back home, but he loved his wife and son and his home, country, and his palace. Yeah. He, he yearned for them so much.

[00:06:12] He made a promise, and he was gonna keep it 

[00:06:15] Donna: Yeah, I like that he preserved, that, that Nolan preserved that, and he could have easily had Penelope, you know, fall prey to a suitor or, or, or have Odysseus fall prey to, to one of the people that, that- 

[00:06:32] Rebekah: Oh … 

[00:06:33] Donna: tried to stop him. And this, I’m not- But he did. Okay. He did.

[00:06:36] He did in a way, but I mean, there w- his, his heart was always driven to get back home. And I think- Yeah … uh, I think taking us through that, I do like that he kept that. Yeah. 

[00:06:50] Tim: In all versions, she was faithful. 

[00:06:53] Donna: Yeah. Yes. 

[00:06:55] Rebekah: I think my favorite thing that was the same was that we kept Odysseus tying himself to his boat when they were passing the sirens so that he would be able to hear them, but unlike everyone else on the boat, who had their ears filled with wax, he would, he would hear them, but was prohibited from pursuing them.

[00:07:15] Um, Pastor Matty actually mentioned it in a sermon this week, and I thought it was just such an interesting thing to talk about, like, like a good man, you know, whether or not Odysseus was a good man. He was just using that as an example of something in general, but a good man doesn’t simply say, “Oh, I hope that temptation doesn’t come in my life.”

[00:07:32] He, like, creates situations where he binds himself- Yeah … from being able to say yes to it, even if it does show up. So I just thought that was really cool. Mm-hmm. So I liked that. Me. All right. So changes today, we’re starting with characters. Mm-hmm. Then setting, then the plot/timeline. So Mother, would you like to get us started?

[00:07:50] Donna: I would love to get us started. We’re going to begin at the beginning with Odysseus- Okay … himself. 

[00:07:57] Rebekah: Okay. 

[00:07:57] Donna: Uh, in the movie, he is guilt-ridden. He’s a survivor of t- of great trauma. He’s also modest. Um, he’s haunted by Troy. Um, he’s, hi- his cunning and his shrewdness is stripped, really, from, from the character.

[00:08:15] He’s not, um, he doesn’t come across that way at all, and I 200%, that is a, I would agree with that all the way across the board. Uh, but in the book, he’s like a man of twists and turns. He’s a schemer. He’s a liar. He is a proud boaster, and Emily Wilson critiqued this, uh… I have so much to say about how this, Emily Wilson works into this whole thing.

[00:08:42] Emily Wilson’s critique on this was he doesn’t seem to want food. What does he want? 

[00:08:51] Rebekah: He’s a selfish man- Yes … so he wants anything that occurs to him that feels like it will get him home. Yes. I think that this is, like, this was definitely the hardest part for me because that’s why I call it Christopher Nolan’s Odyssey.

[00:09:05] He made Odysseus someone who wasn’t just desperate to get back home, but who was also someone in 2026 that you would look at and, like, have compassion for, want to root for. Which I guess is fine, but that is not the person in the story in a lot of the cases. Mm-hmm. Like, he pridefully, like, nearly gets them killed by the, um, the Cyclops.

[00:09:28] He, like, actually will… You know, he, he’s not a faithful guy. He, he just does a lot of things that are, like- Mm … not very nice. Um, and I think that his positioning as, like, a selfish man, he was a strong man. He was a strong warrior. He was someone who could use wisdom, but he was not, like, a kind man. He actually was, like, annoyed and constantly stopping- Mm

[00:09:53] the men on his ship from mourning those who died. Like, he c- he was the one that kept standing in the way and saying, “No, don’t do that. We have to move on. We have to do the next thing.” Yes. So, I don’t know. In- 

[00:10:03] Donna: interestingly enough, your first descripti- descriptor there was that Nolan made him, made you have compassion for him.

[00:10:13] Sure. Which I, which I agree with. Um, but a strong leader that is responsible for a country, for a, a land or, or a, a, whether it’s soldiers or whatever, y- they don’t want compassion. They’re not looking for compassion. Yeah. They’re not striving to receive it. They’re making hard decisions that other people- Could not or would not easily make.

[00:10:42] And I do think that is interesting that Nolan crafted him into someone that you did feel for, ’cause it made him a little weaker, I think, of a, of a man. 

[00:10:56] Tim: I, I wouldn’t say that, that they made him someone that you had compassion for. I think they made him someone that you felt sorry for. Obviously he was a ter- Hmm.

[00:11:07] Yeah … obviously he had been a terrible person because he was in war and was successful in war, so he should feel guilty, and you should feel bad that he’s a, he’s that kind of person. I, that- Mm … unfortunately that’s what I felt like they were trying to go for. Because- Mm-hmm … it is true that if you have to make those tough decisions in war and things like that, that you aren’t making kind, sweet overtures.

[00:11:36] You’re killing people. Yeah. That’s, that’s what war is. Uh, and for whatever reason that they were, they were at war with Troy, they were at war, and the people of Troy would have killed all of, all of Odysseus’ troops. He, he wasn’t the leader, he was the kind of second in command. But they would have done, they would have done the same thing.

[00:12:01] Uh, and the movie, Nolan makes him never good that he was successful as a warrior. 

[00:12:13] Rebekah: Hmm … it, 

[00:12:14] Tim: it, there’s a, he’s damaged 

[00:12:17] Rebekah: I don’t think you could have made this movie true to its source material in 2026- No … which is hard- It’s true … because I think- Yeah … I think if you can’t, should you be making it? Like, if it’s this big of an epic poem, was it the right call to- Mm.

[00:12:34] Anyway, I think, I mean, it’s obviously, you know, it’s done. It’s, what’s done is done. It’s just one example of where there’s a lot of things that make people uncomfortable- 

[00:12:42] Tim: Mm-hmm … 

[00:12:42] Rebekah: so they took it out. 

[00:12:44] Tim: Yeah. 

[00:12:44] Rebekah: This will be a theme, so. Yeah. 

[00:12:47] Tim: Yes, that’s probably not- Interesting … the last time that will come up. Well, there was a, there was another change in the characterization, and that was with Telemachus.

[00:12:55] In the movie, he’s rescued by his father, kills the traitor Melanthius. Uh, he’s crowned king at the end when Penelope and Odysseus, or Odysseus is exiled, and Penelope goes with him. Uh, in the book, however, uh, he fights beside his father, and he hangs the maids, uh, many of which were, um, deceptive and, um, uh, and betrayed Odysseus and Penelope.

[00:13:24] Um, and he was not crowned, though he would be crowned. That was, um, that was an understood thing. It was coming. He, he would be crowned. The movie, he’s rescued by his father. In the book, he goes, he goes away on a long journey to try and find his father. 

[00:13:45] Josiah: Mm. 

[00:13:45] Tim: Part of what takes place during that journey is that he becomes a man.

[00:13:50] He realizes- Mm … how to lead people. Yeah. He realizes what it takes, uh, the difficulty it takes to lead people so that he’s- ready to become the king. We don’t get that. He goes on a little bit of a journey- Mm … but, uh, but not much. But in the, in the film, I, I really appreciate Tom Holland’s acting. I think he’s a great actor.

[00:14:16] I think he was miscast. He seemed very childlike. He needed a harsher edge, and Tom Holland doesn’t have that. He has a baby face. 

[00:14:27] Donna: But I, I think he was directed the w- I think he was directed to portray this character, because my issue with him is w- where in the book, he fights beside his father. I thought that Odysseus was too concerned that his son never see battle, but he’s raising the ne- the future king, who is- I think what he was s-

[00:14:51] a military leader, so- 

[00:14:52] Tim: I think what he was supposed to be- Yeah … concerned about was that his son not do something against Zeus which would cause him to be exiled. Yeah. I think that was what he was cons- s- supposed to be most concerned with. Mm-hmm. “I’ll do the dirty work, because it, it will mean that I’m exiled.”

[00:15:11] Rebekah: I also thought he was miscast. I’ve seen a ton of people that have said, like, “Oh, it’s some of Tom Holland’s best work,” and I don’t- Mm … again, very similarly don’t think that it’s because of Tom Holland. Um, I don’t think he did a bad job with what he was given. 

[00:15:25] Tim: Correct. 

[00:15:25] Rebekah: He did not seem like the person that you read about They just didn’t seem like the same person at all.

[00:15:32] Tim: If- 

[00:15:32] Rebekah: Like, the Tom Holland version of that guy, like, would not have done the… The, the whole ending would not have happened. I mean, the ending of the movie didn’t happen like it did in the book, but you know what I’m saying? Yeah. It’s like there was a different person there. 

[00:15:44] Tim: The, um, actual… I, I know this may sound a little weird, but the, um, the character that was created for the movie, uh, that, that ended up being the, um, being the soldier that waited when the Trojan horse was left and- Oh, outside of the horse.

[00:16:01] Yeah … didn’t realize. Yeah. Out- Sinon. Outside of Troy. I think had that been played by Tom Holland, it would’ve been a very memorable part for him- Mm-hmm … and it would have fit who he was. He would have looked- Like, yeah, 

[00:16:15] Rebekah: it would’ve felt more authentic … 

[00:16:16] Tim: he would have looked very innocent. He would’ve looked like he, you know, felt betrayed- Yeah

[00:16:22] that they didn’t tell him what he needed to know, and he was killed- Mm … in the process. He would’ve been tragic, but it would have fit, I think- Mm … would’ve fit him better. 

[00:16:33] Donna: Interesting. 

[00:16:34] Josiah: Of course, we have Penelope. In the movie, she’s indignant that people aren’t content that she sits the throne. Uh, she’s also more accepting of Odysseus’s return at the end of the book.

[00:16:45] She took a lot of convincing. Uh, I’d finished the book this morning. I was like, “Girl, it’s a whole chapter. You need to be convinced that your husband’s home. He just ki- he’s already killed everyone.” Why would he 

[00:17:00] Tim: have 

[00:17:01] Josiah: done that? Why would he come back? Like, let’s focus, Em. Yeah. She, uh… In the book, she doesn’t have a girl power speech, um, that wins her the Oscar, but, uh-

[00:17:07] she also doesn’t believe that her husband has returned, and I, I, I get it. I get it, but after all the suitors die, it’s interesting. So- 

[00:17:18] Rebekah: I did not have a problem with her character in the film other than when she said the thing about, like, I, you know, “I’ve been sitting on the throne for 20 years.” And I’m like, in the timeline that this is written, that would’ve been irrelevant.

[00:17:32] Mm. You being a woman would have literally meant that no one- Yeah … would’ve even blinked an eye at it. So that was a little bit unbelievable for me. I mean, the whole movie is- Well, 

[00:17:40] Tim: had she 

[00:17:41] Rebekah: been- … all, it’s fantasy. It’s like, 

[00:17:42] Tim: I can’t- … sitting on the throne, they wouldn’t have been wasting away her money and possessions- 

[00:17:49] Rebekah: Yeah

[00:17:49] Tim: because she would’ve been in control of them to a- Yeah, but I did- … to at least some degree. 

[00:17:54] Rebekah: But I did like, I thought Anne Hathaway did an amazing job. Yeah. And I really liked her portrayal for the most part. Moving on to Odysseus, uh, Part 2, I wanted to mention this specifically. Mm. He was unfaithful to Penelope.

[00:18:10] Um, in the movie, he was faithful to her, didn’t have relations with anyone else, whatever. Uh, when he was with Calypso, he was drugged, like, fully drugged captivity. However, in the book, he was Circe’s willing lover, and some sources estimate he was with Circe for about a year, which is crazy. Like, it felt like it went by fast- Wow

[00:18:32] in his description, so maybe that’s not true. Um, and then that when he was with Calypso, there was part of him willing to be her lover even though he eventually said, “Oh, but I wanna go home.” Um, so I did think that that was interesting. I think in 2026, if you put that on screen, no one’s gonna support Odysseus at that point for the most part.

[00:18:52] Like- 

[00:18:52] Tim: I think the movie chose, chose to make him forgetful. It, it made a- Yes … big point with Calypso that he couldn’t remember- Yeah … who he was. He couldn’t remember who his family was. Um, one of the other changes in the movie, uh, was that there are no Olympians, no gods on screen. Posei- Poseidon instead is represented simply by the sea.

[00:19:18] Zeus is a lightning flash and a thunder, a sound of thunder. Uh, there’s no Hermes, the, uh, the messenger. Um, in the book, the gods are active characters. Uh, the monsters are there, but the… I, I think it was a miss to leave them out because- I 

[00:19:41] Josiah: thought that was weird … 

[00:19:42] Tim: they mo- well, they move the plot in the book.

[00:19:45] Um, the, the gods argue with one another, and, um, one, one of them’s trying to outwit another one. Uh, and Odysseus is the pawn. Not only Odysseus, but his men that end up all dead, um, they’re pawns of the gods, and I think- Mm-hmm … that’s an important part of the poem in the book, and, and it’s missing- Mm … in the film.

[00:20:12] Josiah: I liked it. 

[00:20:15] Tim: I liked it that way … uh, 

[00:20:16] Josiah: the only, uh, god who does appear in the film is Athena. It is in visions, and the twist at the end of the film is that it is a guilt hallucination based on a Trojan priestess that was beheaded in, in the Trojan horse invasion 

[00:20:41] Tim: I never thought that was Athena when we were watching the movie.

[00:20:45] It took a while. The only time I realized it was Athena was when I’ve watched- Mm-hmm … reviews of it that said, “Oh, yes, this was Athena.” I was like, “Oh, well, I thought he was just dreaming about the priestess that was killed.” And she kept coming back to him in memory, in hallucination. You don’t see the priestess 

[00:21:00] Josiah: be killed until the last 10 minutes of the movie, though.

[00:21:02] Tim: Right. Right. Um- But that, when she’s killed, it’s like, oh, that was the priestess and, and he’s- Yeah … dreaming about her. I never connected that to that’s Athena. 

[00:21:17] Rebekah: That’s funny. 

[00:21:17] Josiah: I got it. I, it was the… It was like a personification of the physical thing that Penelope gave him. Not like I got it the first time I saw her.

[00:21:27] Um- 

[00:21:27] Tim: Which was different in the book. 

[00:21:30] Josiah: Yeah, I don’t think she gave him an Athena trinket, did he? Right. 

[00:21:35] Tim: It, it wasn’t Athena. It was, it was a different trinket. 

[00:21:38] Josiah: Yeah, in the book, Athena’s like a, just a real goddess like the other little-G gods. You know, she disguises him, she guides Telemachus, she deflects spears, she ends the feud.

[00:21:48] She 

[00:21:48] Tim: disguises herself a few different times. 

[00:21:51] Josiah: Mm. 

[00:21:52] Donna: But Josiah, you said that you liked his representation of the gods rather than making them other characters? 

[00:21:59] Josiah: Yeah. 

[00:22:00] Donna: In the, in the- I 

[00:22:02] Josiah: ha- 

[00:22:02] Donna: Once 

[00:22:02] Josiah: you describe that- Well, first of all, I hate the gods as a concept. Why am I watching a story where it’s all deus ex machina?

[00:22:09] N- none of these characters matter. It’s all just what the gods decide. And so Chris decided, I f- I think probably pretty early on, and it was obvious to him, and it’s like this is about the human characters. This is not about the god characters. 

[00:22:29] Donna: I hadn’t considered this aspect of it until we were preparing for this and I, I saw this.

[00:22:35] If you had had actors representing them, you add a lot more to this cast, and then- That’s true … at some point does it become the original Spider-Man with Tobey Maguire part three where you’ve got all these villa- you’ve got them everywhere, and you can’t really even get invested in them. 

[00:22:53] Tim: On that part, I would say when they gave the first trailer, just the very, very first teaser trailer, what, two and a half years ago, um, I anticipated that it would be a massive cast and a- Sure

[00:23:08] truly massive, uh, number of people. Mm-hmm. And that’s- Sure … not exactly what it was. There were, there were- large numbers of people, but you didn’t know them. You- 

[00:23:19] Rebekah: They kept the cast, like- Yeah … relatable and follow- 

[00:23:22] Tim: You, you knew 

[00:23:23] Rebekah: a 

[00:23:23] Tim: few 

[00:23:23] Rebekah: of- You could follow them … 

[00:23:24] Tim: you knew a few of his soldiers, just a few, mostly the leaders, um, and a few of the people that he fought with.

[00:23:31] Mm, and then you knew a few of the suitors. Mm-hmm. It was, it was really small- Yeah … the number of people that you actually know. Ah, and the dog. 

[00:23:39] Donna: Don’t forget the dog. 

[00:23:41] Tim: And the dog. 

[00:23:43] Rebekah: I kinda wanted to see the gods on screen. I think the only thing that it really bugs me about was that it added to the vibe of like nothing is really magical.

[00:23:54] Like, we call this thing Zeus’s law, but it’s like is Zeus even really real, or is this all just kinda our weird interpretation of it? And I liked that the book felt like an actual fantasy story, you know what I mean? 

[00:24:08] Josiah: I mean, Zeus isn’t real 

[00:24:11] Rebekah: I know he’s not real, but in the film, they took something where the story had things that were very much not real, and very much magic and fantasy, and they made them into a movie that made it almost, almost, not completely, almost seem like it could all mostly be, like, actual just things that were there, and you just interpreted it as being the gods.

[00:24:32] You know? Well, and that- So I think that was the only thing it took… I don’t know. 

[00:24:35] Tim: And that may very well be what Nolan wanted to do. Um, you know, here are just normal circumstances, people making decisions, some of them poor decisions, and there are consequences. Not that they’re forced upon them, but there are just consequences to your decisions.

[00:24:54] Yeah. That may have been his conscious choice. 

[00:24:56] Donna: I wish we could have gotten him to come onto the, the podcast and talk to us about it, but- 

[00:25:00] Tim: We’re not quite big enough for him- You know, he said- … to come and talk to us yet. 

[00:25:03] Rebekah: No. You know, we had a conversation, and he was like, “Hey, Monday nights are really bad for me.”

[00:25:08] Mm. That’s it. And I was like, “I’m sorry. My schedule- It’s the only time we can do … is very full. I can’t move the time for you. 

[00:25:12] Tim: That’s the only time we’re available.” Yeah. Yeah, there’s just, there’s just no way we could- So … we could move ours to- Yeah … to accommodate him, so. 

[00:25:18] Donna: So we move on to Antinous, I think. I believe so, yeah.

[00:25:23] That’s the best way to say it. That is 

[00:25:24] Rebekah: correct. 

[00:25:25] Donna: In the movie, he is the chief villain. He has an invented backstory. He dodges the war by sending Sinon, let’s say, in his place. Um, he plots Telemachus’s murder. He’s constantly, uh, at his throat, just constantly at him. He’s gonna take over, and he’s gonna get his mother, and, and just taunting him throughout the whole thing.

[00:25:51] Um, also Melantho’s lover, uh, he was killed last. In the book, he’s just merely the worst of 108 suitors. There’s no history with Odysseus, and he’s the first one to go. 

[00:26:07] Rebekah: Another person that invented things was Christopher Nolan. He didn’t invent this character. But Sinon, uh, was not in The Odyssey at all in the book.

[00:26:19] Mm. So Virgil’s Aeneid is the epic poem in which Sinon is featured, and I think the story is different. It’s not an Antinous thing. So Sinon exists, but I don’t know the specific story. I wouldn’t know. Um, in the film, Sinon is sent to Troy in place of Antinous. It kind of seems like voluntarily-ish maybe.

[00:26:43] Like, volunteers- Yeah … I don’t know. I feel like he’s his servant- 

[00:26:45] Tim: Antinous- … but I’m not sure 

[00:26:47] Rebekah: Yeah. I will say in some of the translations, I did read this, some of the translations he’s like a cousin. In others, he’s a servant/slave, so it’s unclear, like, what his original relationship would’ve been. So he was related in A- the Aeneid, maybe not to Antinous, though.

[00:27:06] I don’t remember. It was something weird. So, um- 

[00:27:10] Donna: Let’s stop for a minute and go read that 

[00:27:12] Rebekah: The whole Aeneid, yeah. No, that makes sense. That’s probably a good idea. It’ll only take you 30 minutes. 

[00:27:16] Donna: You say Aeneid, I hear anus. Aeneid. I can’t 

[00:27:20] Josiah: not hear it. Aeneid. Not anus. I didn’t know it was 

[00:27:21] Rebekah: pronounced. 

[00:27:22] Josiah: Not the anus.

[00:27:22] I didn’t know 

[00:27:23] Donna: how it was pronounced, but… 

[00:27:24] Josiah: Aeneid. 

[00:27:26] Rebekah: It’s Virgil’s Aeneid. 

[00:27:27] Josiah: He is the one who lets himself get caught by Trojans and convinces them, “The Greeks left me behind and, and they mistreated me, and, uh, this giant horse is a holy gift to Athena that… And if you destroy it- Hmm … Troy will fail. But if you bring it inside, Troy will conquer Greece.”

[00:27:46] He did. 

[00:27:46] Rebekah: Same role. 

[00:27:48] Tim: Same story. 

[00:27:49] Rebekah: Is there something about a connection with Antinous? It 

[00:27:51] Josiah: is. He was the cousin of Odysseus, uh, in the, in the Aeneid. Oh, okay, 

[00:27:55] Rebekah: okay, okay. Yeah. So he’s related to Odysseus. All right. So in the film, he is indeed the character sent to Troy, uh, in Antinous’ place, who dies at the horse in the first, like, few seconds of the movie.

[00:28:09] Then we see Sinon again in the underworld, and Odysseus uses that alibi or alias, whatever, when he returns to Ithaca, um, in the film, like, before he reveals himself as who he is. Mm-hmm. So none of that happened in the book. Uh, he’s in the other book, but related to Odysseus, not Antinous. I, I don’t mind having the character because of how they developed, like, oh, this is how we fooled them to get the horse into Troy.

[00:28:38] I thought it was cool to see some of the Trojan War that was not necessarily in The Odyssey itself. I, I think the thing that bothered me… Like, we’re not talking about casting or any of that stuff. I just literally don’t understand why he had to be related to Antinous. Like, it was a little confusing.

[00:28:55] Well, I’d make it- And having a little boy- Yeah … that actually didn’t look like the actor made it more confusing to keep the characters straight as to who they were, and it was like Antinous kinda seemed like he was not real… He was trying to go and like, “Oh, but if I have to stay…” You know, I don’t know. It just felt confusing and, like, a little bit immersion breaking for me- Yeah

[00:29:17] that we had this character that isn’t actually in the story in this part. I wish you’d kinda just had the character, even if you put them in the underworld. Like, I just didn’t understand the Antinous connection. 

[00:29:28] Tim: I think that the connection was an attempt, partially failed perhaps, to, to make Antinous even more despisable.

[00:29:39] Donna: I will say, at the very beginning when he’s there and, and, uh, Odysseus is in the horse, and he’s listening, and then he hears him get killed, and the spear goes through the horse, right? 

[00:29:53] Tim: Yeah. 

[00:29:55] Donna: Um, when that happens, I… That was one of the moments in the movie I most felt Matt Damon’s emotion in the character.

[00:30:06] Tim: Mm-hmm. ‘

[00:30:06] Donna: Cause there were other times I felt like- Whether it was the direction he was given or the way he interpreted it, there were times I felt like he, his, the mo- the emotion should have been stronger. But in this time, I was completely convinced there, there in that moment that he was so grieved over Sinon getting, getting killed.

[00:30:30] And so I know that’s a little small thing, and it’s very not central to the plot or whatever, but I can just remember thinking, “Oh, Damon’s gonna, Damon’s gonna kill this.” And as we went through, there were other parts where I was kinda like, “Uh, he’s not killing it.” Like, I wanna see him do it. But, uh, Calypso is Uh, Charlize Theron, and I’ve heard several reviewers now say, okay, we listened to Critical Drinker, and he liked the movie better than he expected.

[00:31:10] I would say that if you follow him at all. Uh, he expected to totally trash this movie, and he didn’t trash it completely. But one of the things he said that I thought was so funny was, “No throw-off to Han- Anne Hathaway, but if I had the option to spend the rest of my life with Charisse Theron, even in a drug state, over,” and I’d probably pick Charlize Theron.

[00:31:32] Uh- I mean … but, you know, come on. She’s aged d- different… I know they aged Anne in the movie, right? Anne Hathaway’s still beautiful. Uh, but in the movie, she is seemingly mortal. She keeps a, an amnesiac Odysseus docile with lotus flowers. Uh, lotus eaters folded in, and she f- she frees him herself. But in the book, it’s a, the, it’s a go- she’s definitely a goddess.

[00:32:04] You, you don’t think of her as a human there with him. Um, she’s offering immortality. He’s fully aware. He’s weeping on her shore, but he’s freed by Zeus’ order. 

[00:32:17] Tim: And so- And isn’t the, the lotus, the eating of the lotus flowers, isn’t that one of the ways that she traps the rest of his crew? 

[00:32:25] Josiah: Yeah, so it’s not Calypso.

[00:32:28] It was the peaceful lotus eaters. I think it was an, it was an- Oh, okay … extra journey that they’re, that his men stopped on. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause I think his men are gone by the time movie Odysseus gets there. Uh- Oh, 

[00:32:40] Tim: yeah. By the time movie- 

[00:32:42] Rebekah: Yeah. 

[00:32:42] Josiah: Yeah. So yeah, in the book, the lotus eaters feed his men lotuses. They forget why they’re there.

[00:32:49] They forget about wanting to go home to Ithaca, and he- Mm-hmm … like rescues them. He forces them back onto the ship. It makes me think of the wax in the ear moment, ’cause I, I think he ties them, he ties them so they can’t escape back to shore. 

[00:33:08] Tim: Yeah. Mm. They’re desperate to go back- Yeah … and he has to prevent them.

[00:33:11] Yeah, there, I think- Yeah … there’s, yeah, there’s more than one of those types of epis- episodes where he has to save his men from themselves from what they’ve gotten into. 

[00:33:21] Josiah: Oh, 

[00:33:21] Tim: wow. And this is- Yeah … another one. Uh, Circe, in the movie, uh- 

[00:33:27] Josiah: Mm … 

[00:33:27] Tim: wary, world-weary witch. Uh, there’s no romance. Um- The stay lasts only a day.

[00:33:37] Uh, Eurylochus, is that the right way to pronounce that? 

[00:33:40] Josiah: Eurylochus? 

[00:33:41] Rebekah: I think 

[00:33:42] Tim: so. Yeah. Eurylochus, maybe. One of, one of his men is turned into a pig. Uh, in the book- Well, 

[00:33:47] Rebekah: all of them are turned into pigs- 

[00:33:48] Tim: Yeah … 

[00:33:49] Rebekah: but. 

[00:33:49] Tim: But, but I guess he’s the first. Oh, I 

[00:33:51] Rebekah: see. Yeah. Um- 

[00:33:52] Tim: Well, they made 

[00:33:53] Rebekah: that 

[00:33:53] Tim: note. Okay … in the book, she’s a seductive goddess.

[00:33:56] It’s a year-long affair, and Eurylochus especially is the one who escapes the pig spell, um, in the book. Um, so it’s, it’s different. It was, um, it was strange. Um- Yeah … it was, it was just a strange one. Uh, it kind of came out of nowhere, and, um, it, it was just, it was awkward. Watch- watching her mold their faces- Mm

[00:34:27] into pigs was an interesting choice. 

[00:34:30] Donna: Oh my gosh. It was so intense at the… I was not ready for the intensity that was gonna come out, and I was like, “Oh, oh my God, what is she doing?” And I kept seeing Agatha in Minority Report. Now, she was kind of a creepy character in that movie too, so it didn’t, it didn’t make her un-creepy.

[00:34:49] But, um, just watching her, and it, she, she ruled this role. I really, really, really- Mm-hmm … l- enjoyed, uh, how she portrayed this role, as dark and weird as it was. 

[00:35:04] Rebekah: So I loved this scene. I… It might have been one of my favorite, like, parts of the film for some reason. I just thought it was really creative. Uh, fun trivia fact- Mm-hmm

[00:35:14] this was not a CGI scene at all. Wow. They used, like, clay molds I think. Yeah. Yeah, like a sculpting clay. Yeah. Uh, and the actress physically, like, after they got the scenes where the guys were there, she reached and started molding their, their clay faces, um, which I just thought was really, really interesting.

[00:35:35] Mm-hmm. Uh- Yeah … what I didn’t like about Circe was, uh… I, I get, like, in a post-Me Too world why you think that it makes her, I don’t know, relatable or something. Mm. But, like, Circe wasn’t afraid of being attacked by men. 

[00:35:54] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:35:54] Rebekah: It just… I know that it, you know, maybe it was still an act or whatever, but, like, it was not…

[00:36:00] That part of her in the film was like, are you just trying to make me care about her? ‘Cause she’s really interesting and cool, and she’s a pretty cool, like- Mm-hmm … sort of villain if you just let her be. 

[00:36:12] Donna: She was this ruthless, powerful witch. Yeah. But then you were supposed to also see her as a victim. That was o- it was odd to me.

[00:36:23] Pick o- pick a lane, just one or the other. Sure. I loved it. 

[00:36:26] Josiah: Another wild scene that I think is, uh, basically in the… There- there’s elements that are in the book taken from the movie, but- Mm-hmm … Helen of Troy and her sister, Clytemnestra. 

[00:36:40] Tim: There’s an interesting naming thing. They’re twin sisters, so one has a simple name-

[00:36:45] and one has this- … really complicated name. 

[00:36:48] Josiah: Well, I think Helen- Ah … might be a simple name because we happened to use it for the basis of all Western culture. It’s called Hellenistic. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but in an alternate universe, we could have lived in a Clytemnestra culture. 

[00:37:08] Rebekah: Interesting. 

[00:37:09] Josiah: Um- 

[00:37:10] Rebekah: Mm-hmm … 

[00:37:10] Josiah: in the movie, they’re identical twins, both played by Lupita Nyong’o.

[00:37:14] Helen’s face is scarred by, uh, Menelaus. Uh, that’s Jon Bernthal Frank, right? 

[00:37:22] Tim: Yes. 

[00:37:23] Rebekah: Yeah. 

[00:37:24] Josiah: Yeah, I think that that was- 

[00:37:26] Tim: Typecast. 

[00:37:27] Josiah: That was- Mm-hmm Was it Clytemnestra was Agamemnon’s wife? And- Yes … Clytemnestra t- had… She took revenge upon her husband for the Trojan War or, or something with that, I believe.

[00:37:49] Tim: Something. When 

[00:37:50] Josiah: he came back from the war- I’m going off of memory … 

[00:37:51] Tim: she killed him. About, 

[00:37:52] Rebekah: yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:53] Josiah: And I guess Helen mentions, you know, she talks about that with Menelaus, and Menelaus does not like her talking about it. 

[00:38:02] Rebekah: But I think the difference is in the movie, like, they made the sisters their, like, um, like why they had been enslaved or captured or whatever was like a trade war thing, like that culminated in the Battle of Troy.

[00:38:17] So that’s not really in the book. 

[00:38:19] Josiah: Um, in the book, they’re half-sisters. Mm-hmm. They’re not identical twins. Uh, and Helen of Troy is serenely restored at Sparta. 

[00:38:29] Rebekah: The point of the, the reframing of the war is not that trade would not have been the purpose of a war, but that in history, Helen of Troy was the most beautiful woman ever to have lived, and the war was about her, which is also why in the book she was a half-sister to Clytemnestra and they h- couldn’t look exactly the same because Helen had beauty that was, like, beyond all others.

[00:38:53] Tim: The face that launched a thousand ships 

[00:38:55] Rebekah: So anyway, there were a lot of cut characters and groups, um, from the film. So, uh, those who were cut were the Phaeacians of Nau- Nausicaa Nausicaa … Nausicaa. Nausicaa. I did look this up. I was curious. Um, Laertes, Eurycleia the nurse, although I feel like n- wouldn’t the character- The old woman

[00:39:17] that was the nurse be Eurycleia? Even, even if 

[00:39:18] Josiah: she’s not named- The old woman? … I, I think that basically is the same character. Yeah. 

[00:39:23] Rebekah: Yeah. Agreed. Um, Nestor- It’s crazy 

[00:39:24] Josiah: that we all know who the nurse is. Yeah. She made an impact on us, I guess. 

[00:39:28] Rebekah: Uh, she did. Um, Hermes, Aeolus, Achilles, and Odysse- Odysseus’s mother, Anticlea, um, in the underworld, and Elpenor.

[00:39:39] So okay, so this is, this is actually important. So the Phoenicians in Nausicaa, in the Odyssey the poem, that’s where Odysseus is, and he tells them the story. That’s the place he is as he tells the whole story. They just cut it from the book because they just… or the film because they just show you the story.

[00:39:58] Mm-hmm. Right. And so he doesn’t ever have to go to Nausicaa or whatever it is. Um, Elpenor- Oh, okay, I’m remembering 

[00:40:04] Josiah: that actually. Okay, yes. 

[00:40:05] Tim: The Phaeacians help. Yeah. I think they help him get back. They’re- 

[00:40:09] Rebekah: Right. 

[00:40:09] Tim: They help provide some things- Yeah, I think so … to help him get back after he 

[00:40:14] Rebekah: tells the story.

[00:40:14] Elpenor is his, uh, youngest comrade on the mission back from Troy who they finally get… Uh, it’s when they escape from Circe, um, or when they, like, get out of her evil grip and they, she essentially, like, agrees to leave them and let them go peacefully. She gives them a bunch of alcohol, and I thought this was so funny, ’cause it just was, like, out of nowhere and so random.

[00:40:40] So Elpenor’s just, like, this kid who’s dumb and drinks too much wine and decides that he’s gonna go and sleep on Circe’s roof instead of in the house. 

[00:40:50] Tim: And he falls. 

[00:40:51] Rebekah: And he falls off the roof and breaks his neck, and they just, like, walk outside and their friend is dead. Yeah. Yeah. And then he’s the guy that you see- Hades

[00:40:59] in, uh, when you go to Hades instead of Sinon. And I’m like, that’s… I mean, that was weird, so I guess in that case, maybe Sinon being there was fine. So those are all just people that were not in the film at all. You remember 

[00:41:12] Josiah: who Laertes is? 

[00:41:15] Rebekah: Laertes 

[00:41:16] Josiah: I don’t Odysseus’ dad. We see- 

[00:41:19] Rebekah: Oh, that’s right, ’cause he asks how his mom and dad are.

[00:41:22] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think 

[00:41:22] Josiah: we see him in Hades, but he’s also in the end. I- 

[00:41:24] Tim: His mom is in, his mom is in Hades ’cause she’s passed away. 

[00:41:28] Josiah: He’s literally- Dad 

[00:41:29] Tim: is still alive- Yeah … when he arrives home. 

[00:41:31] Josiah: I think Laertes has lines in the last chapter. Like, they’re all looking… Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, ’cause Odysseus, like, sees all these dead people.

[00:41:39] Mm-hmm. It’s like, what does everyone who died have to say about the end of the story? And Laertes gets some lines. 

[00:41:46] Rebekah: Well, let’s talk about setting changes. Yeah, 

[00:41:47] Josiah: it’s a much more grounded world this, in the movie. The, it’s a time of apparent magic, is a quote. Uh, the divine action in the movie is shown as a often natural phenomenon that could be just, it could be explained by nature, by chance.

[00:42:05] There’s no Olympus. Mm. Uh, the book is, like, obviously an enchanted cosmos where gods and magic are unambiguously real and ever-present. And I think that that’s- Yeah … totally- I thought- … up Nolan’s alley. I think that’s- Mm-hmm … uh, you know- 

[00:42:22] Rebekah: Nolan does that … 

[00:42:23] Josiah: it’s very modern storytelling, uh, modern movie making.

[00:42:27] Mm-hmm. But, uh, s- very grounded. I think also along those lines we have, uh, he of course, it’s natural. I don’t think… It might be the most natural use of time in a Nolan movie. He loves- Yeah … telling stories out of order. This is probably- Yes … the most natural I think. If I’m- Yeah … if I’m remembering correctly.

[00:42:53] It might be the most natural- You start 

[00:42:55] Tim: toward the end and then you go back to the beginning. 

[00:42:58] Josiah: Yeah. And it’s like- And- … out of order because- … jump back and forth 

[00:43:01] Tim: a little bit … 

[00:43:01] Josiah: people keep telling stories of, from the Iliad. 

[00:43:05] Donna: Yeah. But you can- True. But I think it, I think that’s interesting because I, I knew as we got f- the farther we got into it, I was like, “Oh, did I get smarter because I’m following his timeline?”

[00:43:18] Every other movie, and I love his movies- Mm … but I always have to go back and watch a second time to nail down, uh, I, I could follow this one a little easier, so. 

[00:43:28] Tim: I think this one was easier to follow because there are physical things that, that you see. Odysseus, uh, you see Odysseus age, you see him- Mm-hmm.

[00:43:38] Donna: Sure … 

[00:43:38] Tim: uh, get very frail. 

[00:43:41] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:41] Tim: Uh, when he’s on the, the beach with Calypso, I think it is. Uh, initially- Mm-hmm … he’s very frail and, uh, looks very emaciated. There are other times when he looks strong and powerful. You 

[00:43:55] Josiah: know, and- 

[00:43:55] Tim: Sometimes he’s gray and sometimes he’s not … 

[00:43:58] Josiah: I also wonder if it’s easier to follow because the, the reason for the out of order storytelling is ’cause we’re telling stories, which gives the storyteller in universe- Thinking back

[00:44:09] the opportunity to say- Mm-hmm … “I am about to tell you a story that happened seven years ago and five months.” 

[00:44:16] Tim: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:17] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:17] Josiah: Yeah. “And here’s how it fits in- Yeah … and this is why I’m telling you.” Yeah. And you can work that all into dialogue. I would agree with 

[00:44:22] Tim: that. 

[00:44:23] Donna: In the film, uh, on, it’s on screen repeatedly.

[00:44:27] There’s, it, it’s the prologue. They start there. There’s flashbacks. Uh, sack is shown as a war crime atrocity, and we just alluded to that, uh, some in our comments. And, but in the book the war is already over. Uh, the horse gets like a secondhand mention. The full story is in the Aeneid. Um, I’m glad they kept the horse.

[00:44:53] I liked, I’m glad that he highlighted this, this part. Um- One, it was a, a, a modern marvel at the time of that, of that battle. Um, I, I liked… I wondered what it would, how they would portray the men in there and all stuffed in and, and all that. I wondered how that would come out, and I, and I thought it was successful.

[00:45:19] I felt like it was, um, you could see their struggle, and they weren’t just in there sitting with their legs crossed having a party. They were, it was a treacherous thing to th- on their bodies, on their persons, and had to be there all that time together and all that. 

[00:45:39] Rebekah: I’m so glad they did it that way. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:41] I thought that that was a really strong- Yeah … way to present it. I don’t think I would’ve cared that much about the war if they hadn’t just shown it to me on screen, so I was glad that they changed that. 

[00:45:52] Tim: Did you know that there is a, there’s a phrase that comes from this? Beware Greeks bearing gifts Yes It- 

[00:46:03] Donna: They use 

[00:46:04] Tim: that in a lot of- It’s a more mo- it’s a more modern- I’ve heard that, 

[00:46:06] Donna: yeah

[00:46:06] Tim: it’s a more modern phrase, but, um, that’s where it comes from But it’s used in a 

[00:46:10] Donna: lot of, it’s used in a lot of, uh, of humorous things as well- Yeah … as being a, an actual phrase. 

[00:46:17] Tim: Because to- Yeah … let’s be perfectly honest, it still seems rather strange to a modern, to a modern listener that they were fighting this war for a decade, their enemy suddenly disappears, and there’s this massive horse left outside, so you decide to bring it inside, and it’s filled with all of the Greek warriors.

[00:46:46] It, it just defies logic. It’s like, what do you think that was from? A- and I, I watched a review that said, you know, historically with the mythology, um, they would’ve believed it was a gift from the gods- Mm-hmm … that they would’ve, uh, the enemy finally surrendered, and they left it as a gift. Still seems strange.

[00:47:12] Rebekah: Yeah. Uh, another difference in the film, and this goes to Nolan’s kind of, uh, grounded world idea, but the underworld in the film is a physical place where, quote, “Where fire meets ice.” So it was filmed on a Icelandic black sand coast. Uh, the ritual still works to raise some of the dead. There’s hands rising from the sand, and then we see several dead, and they speak to Odysseus, uh, which does happen in the book.

[00:47:39] But also with the book, it’s actually a mythic realm, um, reached by ship. Same in book and film you hear Odysseus say something about how, like, no one ever goes to the underworld and returns. But instead of them going to, like, the underworld, it seems like they just had to sail far away into this place that looks a lot different.

[00:47:58] But I mean, the, the u- I 

[00:48:00] Josiah: think it’s still the… It doesn’t, what I’m reading, ’cause I didn’t ag- I didn’t think he went to the underworld in the film, but everything I’m reading online says he did go to the underworld. 

[00:48:11] Rebekah: That was the underworld, the place where fire meets ice- Mm-hmm … in the film. 

[00:48:15] Josiah: Is it- It doesn’t make sense to me And that this 

[00:48:16] Donna: is…

[00:48:16] Isn’t that also where Sinon- 

[00:48:19] Josiah: Yeah … yes, 

[00:48:19] Tim: he spoke to- 

[00:48:22] Rebekah: That’s where they see Sinon 

[00:48:22] Josiah: and talks about- He said, “You didn’t tell me that you were inside”- 

[00:48:24] Tim: Yeah … and yeah. Yeah. “And I was killed for it.” 

[00:48:26] Josiah: Blind Tiresias, is that the guy’s name who does the prophecy? 

[00:48:31] Tim: Yeah. 

[00:48:31] Donna: Hmm. Gotcha. 

[00:48:33] Josiah: Yeah, I don’t know- Starts off the story

[00:48:35] why is someone able to go to the underworld? I just wish that it were something like this is where you can do a ritual where you can talk to the undead for a minute. 

[00:48:47] Rebekah: All right. I think we’re to the plot. Plot. We’ve talked about a lot of it, so. 

[00:48:50] Tim: Plot and timeline. So Nolan frames the movie a bit differently.

[00:48:55] Uh, he starts with the bard’s interrupted song, plus memories that are recovered on, uh, Calypso’s island. There are three braided timelines, and like Donna was saying before, it’s a little easier to follow the str- the different timelines, uh, in the movie. In the book, it’s in media res. It’s already… It’s in the middle of the action, basically.

[00:49:19] Um, Odysseus narrates the voyage himself while he’s at the Phaeacian court. Um, and all of, a- all of that stuff is cut, and we’re- We’re graced with hearing the story without the addition of the other characters that, uh, Od- that Odysseus had met on his way back. It’s a g- it’s a good way to, to do it. I think he did a, did a good job at that.

[00:49:49] Rebekah: Yeah. Another big change to the plot, which I think is really interested, interesting, I’ve never seen the film Troy, but the scene of this in Troy is really interesting. So Pol- Polyphemus, Polyphemus? How would you say that? Polyphemus, I think. The Polyphemus. Okay. So i- this is the Cyclops. Um, in the book, I’ll start there, he is given a bunch of wine by Odysseus’ crew.

[00:50:16] There’s a trick to basically get him drunk so that they can stab out his eye. Um, they don’t use wine in the film for this. Um, in the book, Odysseus says, when asked what his name is, he says, “Nobody.” Um, interestingly, in my translation, he translates it, “No man.” Like- Hmm. So it, the joke works the same, but- Hmm

[00:50:44] there isn’t, there’s not the nobody wordplay in the, in the film, and that is something that a lot of people have said was, like, very missed. ‘Cause that is a very… It is a good joke that, like, turns out to work. So like, in the book he says that his name is Nobody, and then when the Cyclops calls out to his fellow Cyclops and is yelling, and they’re like- Who is there?

[00:51:05] “Are you okay?” They’re like, “Who’s attacking you?” And he says, “Nobody.” And they’re like, “If nobody’s attacking you, then you’re fine,” basically. Um, and then finally, the way that they escape is a little b- a little different. So they do blind him, um, in his sleep in the film. Um, and they do blind him after he’s gotten drunk in the book.

[00:51:27] Uh, but they actually put, um, straw, like, on their backs so that they’ll feel like the sheep. I think it’s the fur, isn’t it? And so they’re able to es- escape. Yeah. 

[00:51:37] Tim: I, I think you’re right, it’s straw. Uh. Yeah, I think you’re right. 

[00:51:39] Rebekah: Yeah, in the film I think they use straw, but they escape under the sheep in the book, but it’s, like, done a little bit differently.

[00:51:45] And then the final thing that’s really big is because of the Nobody ruse in the book- He boasts his name as he leaves, and he says something along the lines of, like, “You know, if your father, Poseidon, wants to know who did this to you,” because he’s permanently blinded, and Poseidon’s the only one that would ever heal him.

[00:52:04] Uh, he says, “Tell him it was Odysseus.” And his crew was really upset at him. It was one of those signals of his, um- Arrogance … selfishness and just brazen arrogance, um, all over the place. Mm-hmm. So. The 

[00:52:15] Tim: hubris. 

[00:52:17] Josiah: This is probably- 

[00:52:18] Rebekah: He does taunt a little bit in the film. It’s just different … 

[00:52:21] Josiah: maybe the most famous thing that got cut from the book.

[00:52:24] I think the Cyclops sequence- Yeah … is probably the most popular part of the original book, if you don’t count memories- Mm-hmm … of the Trojan War briefly being mentioned. Um, I feel like I’ve read some pe- uh, multiple people wonder why the nobody ruse wasn’t in the book. Or wasn’t in the movie. I wonder if it would’ve been weird for this grounded movie to have the monster be speaking.

[00:52:52] He mumbles a little bit- Mm … but- 

[00:52:55] Rebekah: He mumbles the name of Poseidon under his breath if you- But 

[00:52:58] Josiah: I couldn’t understand it … like, listen really closely … and they, and they had to say, “He’s mumbling Poseidon,” for me to understand it. 

[00:53:03] Rebekah: Sure. 

[00:53:03] Josiah: So I’m wondering- 

[00:53:04] Rebekah: Sure … 

[00:53:05] Josiah: n- did no one think it was weird for the Cyclops to speak and just to, like, have a conversation with Odysseus?

[00:53:12] Of course, there’s Aeolus. I think he’s… I think Aeolus is a god. 

[00:53:17] Rebekah: He is the son of Hippotes. I think he’s a demi-god. Maybe a g- god. 

[00:53:23] Josiah: Who’s not in the movie, obviously, but in the book, a bag of winds, winds, W-I-N-D-S, opened within sight of Ithaca by the crew, who believed it to be gold 

[00:53:37] Rebekah: He gifted the bag of winds to Odysseus Yeah.

[00:53:41] Tim: So their sails- So that’s- So their, uh, it would fill their 

[00:53:44] Rebekah: sails So, and this is how the final members of his crew die, I think, or, like- Oh, wow … almost the end, ’cause they’re very close to home, and Aeolus- Mm-hmm, yeah … stops Odysseus, wants to know what has happened. Odysseus and his guys spend a month there.

[00:54:03] Aeolus gives him the bag of winds. The crew thinks it’s gold. They open it, but the winds blow them back to Aeolia, um, where Aeolus is, and he refuses to help them a second time, ’cause it’s… Uh, Odysseus is sleeping near his home at this point. Like, he’s literally in Ithaca. And so then the winds blow them back to Aeolia, and Aeolus basically says, “I’m not going to help you because you are cursed by the gods because you ended up back here.”

[00:54:28] Yeah. And it was actually their own greed that made them go back. 

[00:54:32] Donna: Mm. Wow. Uh, then we have the Laestrygonians. In the movie, these were giant armored warriors in a shifting forest. Uh, there’s no cannibalism in the scenes. Um, their fleet is, uh, fleet is, like, three ships. In the book, uh, they are- And 

[00:54:52] Rebekah: the fleet is of Odysseus’ guys, right?

[00:54:55] Tim: Yes. 

[00:54:55] Donna: Uh, yes, yes. Sorry. Okay. Um- 

[00:54:58] Rebekah: No, you’re… I’m trying to keep track. You’re 

[00:54:59] Donna: fine … in the book, uh, they are cannibal giants. They smash 11 of the 12 ships and eat the crews. Uh, I’m not sorry they did not put this in here. Um- I mean- 

[00:55:13] Tim: I think of all of the things in the movie, this was the most fantastical and hardest to look at realistically 

[00:55:22] Josiah: Which is funny, ’cause- Yeah

[00:55:23] did I see that they did not… It wasn’t com- it wasn’t CGI. It was ca- camera trickery using very tall actors and very short stand-ins for the soldiers. 

[00:55:38] Tim: Perhaps. Mm. 

[00:55:39] Josiah: I think it might have been. It 

[00:55:40] Tim: just, it just felt, it, it felt out of place. 

[00:55:44] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:45] Josiah: Well, it’s on the movie 

[00:55:46] Tim: poster. The, the armor, for one, looked, looked so out of place.

[00:55:51] It looked so medieval 

[00:55:54] Rebekah: Yeah, the costuming was weird. 

[00:55:55] Tim: Yeah. 

[00:55:58] Rebekah: There was a lot more of eating of people in this book than I realized there was going to be. 

[00:56:06] Tim: Well, and s- that goes back to the theme of the book that I was talking about before. The gods use human beings, they’re just pawns of their… And so- Mm-hmm

[00:56:18] there are lots of times where they are little more than, um, than food. The, um, underworld is a bit different, the underworld visit. Uh, we talked a little bit about that already. In the movie, um, you only meet Tiresias, Agamemnon, and Sinon’s ghost. Uh, Tiresias delivers all the warnings, uh, the cattle, the sirens, the, the, the s- what, uh, S- Scylla?

[00:56:51] Sc- Scylla? 

[00:56:53] Donna: I think it’s 

[00:56:53] Tim: Scylla. Scylla? 

[00:56:55] Donna: I don’t know. Um- I, I could be way off, but I think that was it … 

[00:56:58] Tim: in the book, um, his mother is also there, and Achilles, and Elpenor. And the sirens and Scylla warnings come from Circe instead, but- Who 

[00:57:09] Rebekah: is not in the underworld, 

[00:57:11] Tim: right? I was gonna say, Circe’s not in the underworld.

[00:57:12] That’s on a different island. Um, and speaking of the islands, when you look at the map of the entire voyage that took 20 years, that’s a very small area. Um, the Grecian Islands are not massive. Uh, so it’s just really weird that it took, took that amount of time, but still. 

[00:57:36] Rebekah: How 2026 privileged can you sound, Dad?

[00:57:40] Tim: Oh, I did that. 

[00:57:41] Rebekah: Just ’cause it’s easy for you to travel that far. The sirens, which I really liked, um, as I said earlier, mostly the same. However, in the film, the song is personalized for Odysseus. Uh, it tells him he doesn’t truly want to go home. They also actually do lose a crewman. Uh, he d- I think he took his wax out.

[00:58:03] Yeah. Um, I don’t think it was that- In the book? … the wax didn’t work. He actively took it out. Well, no. In the book, there’s no one, no one dies. The wax in their ears works fine. Um- Oh, okay … and the song is promising them knowledge of Troy. It’s not personalized to Odysseus not wanting to go back home. And in the film, that’s really weird, because, like- 

[00:58:23] Donna: Yeah

[00:58:23] Rebekah: Odysseus, even when he wasn’t being faithful to his wife, really, really wanted to go home. That is the theme of the book, so. 

[00:58:31] Josiah: Telemachus’ ambush. Let’s talk about in the movie how there was an ambush at the temple. And this is how the disguised Odysseus- Mm-hmm … uh, reunites with his son, even if Telemachus doesn’t realize it.

[00:58:48] How sweet. Yes, so Odysseus saves him. That is the father-son reunion. Argos’ tail wag later confirms it’s dad. 

[00:59:00] Rebekah: Oh my gosh, the dog on the dung pile, by the way- So 

[00:59:03] Josiah: depressing … 

[00:59:03] Rebekah: I was, like, disgusted and sad every time that… It was so depressing. Mm. 

[00:59:08] Josiah: Ryan Phillippe kicked that dog early on. 

[00:59:11] Rebekah: I hated that. How could you- I did not 

[00:59:13] Josiah: like that

[00:59:13] how could you not hate him forever after that? In the book- 

[00:59:17] Rebekah: Okay, well, he was an actor, and he didn’t really kick a dog, okay? 

[00:59:20] Josiah: In the book, the, there was a sea ambush that was evaded. Odysseus revealed to Telemachus at Eumaeus’ hut by Athena. 

[00:59:31] Rebekah: Mm. 

[00:59:33] Tim: This is one of the differences because Telemachus does not go on the voyage- Yeah

[00:59:39] the long voyage. 

[00:59:42] Rebekah: Interesting 

[00:59:43] Tim: So that’s an adjustment Mm-hmm … because it was on the voyage and his return from the voyage that they were, in the book, uh, in the poem, they were trying to kill him. They were setting an ambush for him, and he was warned by Athena, I believe, um, to, and taken off of the ship and- 

[01:00:04] Donna: Mm

[01:00:04] Tim: meets Odysseus and, and all. So when he goes to the house, they’re like, “How did he escape us?” You know? 

[01:00:13] Donna: Mm-hmm. Uh, so rec- some recognitions that were different. In the movie, Penelope is, uh, via returned this, via a returned keepsake pin, uh, um- That’s how 

[01:00:28] Rebekah: they recognize that Odysseus was home 

[01:00:30] Josiah: Is the dog on the dung pile basically the same in the book?

[01:00:33] He, the dog recognizes him. The dog 

[01:00:35] Tim: does recognize him- But I forget … but I think it’s the, I think it’s that it’s not a dog. In the book, I think it’s two dogs. When Telemachus goes to the swine herd, they, the dogs don’t, the dogs don’t bark at him because the dogs don’t bark at their master, and the only other person they’ve done that for is Odysseus.

[01:01:03] Mm. So when Odysseus comes disguised as the beggar, the dogs don’t bark, and the swine herd suspects, but he doesn’t know that that’s Odysseus. 

[01:01:14] Rebekah: And then, yes, the Argos dog was left on a dung heap with parasites, wags his tail when Odysseus comes home, and then dies. 

[01:01:24] Josiah: Cool. 

[01:01:24] Tim: Pet that b- Yeah … that is in the book 

[01:01:25] Josiah: Good boy.

[01:01:26] Pet that good boy right now. 

[01:01:27] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:28] Tim: Well, there’s, uh, some other plot and timeline, uh, changes. The slaughter, for instance- In the movie, Penelope knowingly stages the bow contest. Um, Odysseus takes the arrows, uh, to the back. Telemachus joins late. Uh, some of the suitors ended up surrendering. Mm-hmm. Um, and Antinous cowers and dies last.

[01:01:53] In the book, Athena assists. All 108 suitors die. None of them are spared, and Antinous dies first, not last. He’s the first one. Well, he 

[01:02:04] Rebekah: kicked a dog, so that’s appropriate, actually. 

[01:02:07] Tim: So he 

[01:02:07] Rebekah: would die first. And I think that, 

[01:02:08] Donna: I felt like this, 

[01:02:09] Tim: I felt like this- And Telemachus participates in the slaughter in the book.

[01:02:14] Rebekah: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:02:15] Donna: I think that the way they did this, uh, it was an engaging- filmgoer-friendly fight. I, I felt like it was, you know, intense enough, and Telemachus running upstairs, and he’s working with the guy up there to get the hole in the ceiling and throw down the weapons and that kind of thing. He’s 

[01:02:35] Tim: trying to keep him from throwing- 

[01:02:36] Donna: Yeah

[01:02:36] down the 

[01:02:36] Tim: weapons. 

[01:02:36] Donna: Yeah I thought that was, I thought that was great for the filmgoer, even though it is, it is different than what is written. Um, you know, we’ve discussed a lot of other changes like this in other films that just make them just give you some big fight scene that doesn’t seem to work. But I, I thought this was good.

[01:02:54] I thought this was great. 

[01:02:55] Tim: The part with Telemachus- So … trying to keep the guy from throwing the weapons down, that felt, that felt, felt to me like a failed Spider-Man thing. Yeah. He’s trying to stop this guy, and he keeps throwing him or throwing him across the room, and it’s like, “Oh, well, Spider-Man doesn’t have his powers today.

[01:03:13] Something’s wrong with him. He’s feeling bad,” or whatever. It just, it- Wow … that whole thing, I- that was just awkward to me. I thought it was pitiful. It just never felt comfortable. Does 

[01:03:21] Donna: it, does it maybe say a few of maybe we have some, uh, actors that are in too many films in one year? 

[01:03:29] Josiah: No, uh, it- It- I 

[01:03:31] Donna: don’t want that to be…

[01:03:32] I love these actors. I love these actors, but I’m, I’m seeing them repeatedly, and we’re gonna see them repeatedly through the rest of the year. And it’s like, “Okay, okay, wait. I need you to be different here. I need to see you as this other character.” 

[01:03:47] Rebekah: Uh, let’s talk about the maids, or slaves, as Emily Wilson wants to ensure that you know that they’re called.

[01:03:52] Uh, at the end of the book, let’s talk to the end of the book. There are 12 enslaved women that Telemachus, Tom Holland, uh, murders. He hangs them because they- He would never … betrayed his family. So he mutilates Melanthius, who was Odysseus’s enslaved swineherd. In the film, none of the women are hanged.

[01:04:17] Melantho, which I will point out sounds a lot like Melanthius, but is actually a woman, she’s one of the servant girls, um, the one that was with, uh, Antinous in the film, her fate is left ambiguous. Uh, it looks like she’s escorted off and probably doesn’t die. Mm-hmm. Uh, Telemachus does kill Melanthius instead of mutilating him.

[01:04:37] Uh, however, Nolan intentionally changed this. He called the poem’s ending, quote, “So grim and so misogynistic”- And again, if you are- 

[01:04:48] Donna: It’s a bunch 

[01:04:49] Rebekah: of- … using source material from a time when you’re uncomfortable with, maybe you shouldn’t use that source material. Maybe you could make a movie- It- … that is not- It’s 

[01:04:58] Donna: a bunch of-

[01:04:59] like going to- It’s a bunch of scorned men- 

[01:05:00] Tim: Okay … 

[01:05:01] Donna: and women- Yeah … who have tried to go after some of those scorned men. What, what would you expect them to do? They’re gonna do really horrible stuff because they’re mad. 

[01:05:11] Rebekah: And in a culture- Okay … that’s very different from ours- 

[01:05:13] Tim: Right … 

[01:05:15] Rebekah: that would have been- And I 

[01:05:15] Tim: don’t-

[01:05:15] an acceptable decision … I don’t know if we, I don’t know if we got this right, and if I’m saying something that’s unnecessary, just cut it all together. But Melanthius was the goatherd. Mm-hmm. He was the shepherd, and he had betrayed Odysseus. 

[01:05:31] Rebekah: Right. 

[01:05:31] Tim: The, the swineherd was the one who accepted the beggar- 

[01:05:38] Rebekah: Em- 

[01:05:39] Tim: Eumaeus

[01:05:39] Odysseus and helped him. Mm-hmm. So- Yeah … the goatherd was bad. The swineherd was good. The 

[01:05:48] Rebekah: swineherd was good. 

[01:05:49] Tim: Yes. Interesting. The cowherd was also good, only in the book. Phelecius. 

[01:05:57] Donna: I like that. 

[01:05:58] Tim: Nice. Cowecius.

[01:06:03] Donna: Oh, move over. I’ve got another change Mm-mm. Okay. You are- The ending of the movie … utterly 

[01:06:08] Tim: impossible. 

[01:06:10] Donna: I love cow jokes. Right. Uh, in the movie, killing guests in his own hall broke Zeus’ law. So Odysseus abdicates the throne and sails west into exile with Penelope. Off into the wild blue yonder, blah, blah.

[01:06:29] They wanted to go off and have a romantic holiday. Let’s get real. Telemachus was crowned. Uh, sailing is intercut with Odysseus bleeding out from his arrow wounds in Penelope’s arms. Uh, it, was the exile real? Is it a dying dream? It’s deliberately ambiguous. It’s cool. 

[01:06:50] Tim: Uh, and- Man, I didn’t feel that it was ambiguous.

[01:06:53] Donna: Yeah, they d- he gave you- I mean, if- … all kinds of options to consider … if- Let’s say that … 

[01:06:58] Tim: if he wanted, if Nolan wanted it to look like, well, maybe this is a dream, eh. Eh. I, I didn’t get that. Yeah. 

[01:07:05] Donna: But- Uh, in the book, uh, Odysseus’ kingship is restored. The suitors’, uh, kin rise up, and Athena imposes peace. 

[01:07:17] Rebekah: All right, so I wanted to talk just briefly, uh, before we get into, like, full trivia, on the fact that we did not read the same translations.

[01:07:25] We did that on purpose. Um, and there have been insults and things said about most of the translations, positive and negative. Um, so just to quickly go through it, I’ll, I’ll give you a couple of examples of how these stand apart. So Fitzgerald is the translation that Dad read. The audiobook is by Dan Stevens, someone I don’t recognize.

[01:07:49] So this is back from 1961. It’s ce- certainly the oldest translation, um, that we read, and there are Greek-style spellings in the physical copies of this book, and so it’s a little harder to read if you’re reading a physical copy. Uh, it was the big school standard for a very long time. Uh, Fitzgerald also wrote some slurs, which we will learn is not the only one.

[01:08:12] He added slurs, uh, that the Greek text did not contain. Then in 1996, Robert Fagles wrote a free verse variable version of the poem. This is the one that I believe Mom listened to. Mm-hmm. It is, uh, narrated by Sir Ian McKellen, and I’ve heard- Is it more poetic? It’s not in po- Expands … it’s not in rhythm It’s not in- It’s not in a specific rhythm.

[01:08:36] Donna: Yeah, it’s not in 

[01:08:37] Rebekah: a- Yeah … 

[01:08:37] Donna: poetic rhythm. 

[01:08:39] Rebekah: It’s a fairly expansive telling, so it’s probably a little longer than some of the other ones. Um, it is the modern bestseller. Uh, it does add some additional slurs as well. Fagles, uh, added some things that they called the, the women, the girl slaves. Um, however, it was praised because Penelope in Fagles’ version was, uh, portrayed very strong, uh, compared to Fitzgerald’s version, where she’s a little bit weaker apparently.

[01:09:05] I read Stanley Lombardo’s version. This is a lot harder to find. There is an audiobook that he reads. Um, however, it is… I’m so glad actually that I picked this one. It’s very short in comparison. And it’s written in modern American idiom to try to be something that you could perform- Mm … in America in the year 2000 and be understood.

[01:09:29] For me, this was the perfect translation to read because it was not complicated. Mm-hmm. It was easy to follow, not hard. Um- 

[01:09:35] Tim: Did he recite it to a drum? 

[01:09:40] Rebekah: Uh, y- well, yeah. In the audiobook. In the audiobook? I didn’t listen to the audiobook- Oh, oh, that’s right. You- … but it says so- Okay … y- on the internets. Mm-hmm. Um, so while Fitzgerald and Fagles were, you know, talked about for some political things, like the, the slurs and things in their versions, uh, the register itself of this one was the controversial part.

[01:10:00] So the New Y- New York Times reviewed his Iliad, uh, and they called it Yo, Achilles- … uh, which was the, the copy of their review, which I thought was funny. Finally, Wilson, Emily Wilson, wrote the 2017 version. It was written in strict iambic pentameter, uh, exactly the same lines as the Greek, 12,110. This is the one Josiah read.

[01:10:21] Uh, it is intentionally unheroic, and Emily Wilson has been praised and criticized for her political leanings within the text. She intentionally tilts sympathy away from Odysseus. She said that she wanted it to be more accurate to quote history, and calls the enslaved characters slaves and not maids. She also dropped some, uh, invented slurs.

[01:10:45] Uh, interestingly though, a lot of people have had issues with the fact that this was the translation that Christopher Nolan used. However, she, though saying that you should- Yeah … go see the movie and it’s really important, is a fairly big critic. Mm-hmm. I think we’ll talk about that a little bit more. So I’m just gonna read you a couple…

[01:11:03] I’m gonna read you two different things. So the first one is a line that I’m gonna read the all four versions, and I have to pull mine up in my, uh, Kindle, actually. All right, so oldest to newest. So Fitzgerald, this was dad’s version from 1961. “Sing in me, Muse, and through tell me the story of that man skilled in all ways of contending, the wanderer harried for years on end.”

[01:11:27] In Fagles’ version, the one mom read: “Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns, driven time and again off course, once he had plundered the hallowed heights of Troy.” Uh, Lombardo, the one I read, this is… And sorry, this is the first line of the, of the epic poem: “Speak, memory, of the cunning hero, the wanderer, blown off course time and again after he plundered Troy’s sacred heights.”

[01:11:55] You hear how that’s so simple? The whole thing is like that. It’s great. And then Wilson, which we already mentioned, intentionally recast, uh, Odysseus: “Tell me about a complicated man, Muse. Tell me how he wandered and was lost when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy.” So- 

[01:12:14] Donna: Yeah. 

[01:12:15] Rebekah: I know Interesting … it’s very, it’s like a really harsh one.

[01:12:18] So there was another line that we pulled. I just wanted to kinda see how some of the other parts felt. Uh, the ’61 version, uh, “Poets are not to blame, but Zeus who gives what fate he pleases to adventurous men.” The Fagles version, which, again, is Mom’s, and was very, very long, “Why, Mother?” poised Telemachus put in sharply.

[01:12:40] “Why deny our devoted bard the chance to entertain us any way the spirit stirs him on? Bards are not to blame. Zeus is to blame. He deals to each and every laborer on this earth whatever doom he pleases.” Emily Wilson’s says, “Poets are not to blame for how things are. Zeus is. He gives to each as is his will.

[01:13:00] Do not blame Phemius because he told about the Greek disasters. You must know the newest song is always praised the most.” And Lombardo’s, “Singers are not responsible. Zeus is, who gives what he wants to every man on Earth. No one can blame Phemius for singing the doom of the Danaans. It’s always the newest song an audience praises most.”

[01:13:24] Tim: Hmm. 

[01:13:24] Rebekah: So I just thought that was really interesting because we each read the same book, but we- Technically … did not each read the same book. Yeah. Like, it is- For sure … this is the first time that there has been something like this, so 

[01:13:35] Donna: yeah. 

[01:13:36] Tim: So- I agree … I’m, I’m looking ahead- 

[01:13:39] Rebekah: Yeah … 

[01:13:40] Tim: to the book ratings. The one that I read- Yes

[01:13:44] gets the highest ratings. 

[01:13:46] Rebekah: And the one that I read gets the lowest. 

[01:13:48] Donna: Movie ratings. Uh, Rotten Tomatoes critics Tomato Meter has this at a 94%, and I pulled these numbers- Hmm … Saturday evening, so two days ago, uh, from the time- And I will 

[01:14:02] Rebekah: say- … of our 

[01:14:02] Donna: recording … 

[01:14:03] Rebekah: the 94% ranks it technically third as they show it, but 94% is the tied number for his highest critic-rated movies.

[01:14:14] Hmm. The other two being The Dark Knight and Memento, which are also fantastic. 

[01:14:19] Donna: Yes. 

[01:14:19] Tim: Oh, I would’ve, I would’ve thought that… Okay. I would’ve thought that the- You would’ve rated others higher? … nuclear one- Oppenheimer … would’ve. 

[01:14:26] Donna: Oppy. 

[01:14:27] Tim: Yeah, Oppenheimer. 

[01:14:28] Rebekah: It’s one of the lo- No, it’s 93%, so it’s just literally one percentage point below.

[01:14:35] But his lowest rated film is Batman Begins with an 85% from what I’m looking at. Yeah, and lower than 

[01:14:39] Josiah: Dark Knight Rises. 

[01:14:40] Rebekah: Oh, no. There are some… No. Doodlebug is his lowest. I thought 

[01:14:46] Josiah: you were getting ready to say Dooger. He might be producer on that, not the director. 

[01:14:51] Rebekah: Yeah, no. It looks like The Prestige is director.

[01:14:54] I’m looking for producer. Oh, he was executive producer on Transcendence- He was … in 2014. Yeah. Which got a 19%. 

[01:15:02] Josiah: He- 

[01:15:03] Rebekah: And Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and Justice League. Ugh. 

[01:15:06] Josiah: His director of photography that he always worked with wanted to do Transcendence, and so Nolan supported him f- uh, foraying into directing.

[01:15:16] What a good friend. And it didn’t 

[01:15:17] Donna: work. Aw, nice. Okay. Uh, box office. Um, the production cost of this film is $250 million. This is Nolan’s second film to hit this high budget. Okay? What was the other one, same cost? 

[01:15:35] Tim: What was the other one? That one, that stumps me, because, like, Oppenheimer doesn’t seem like- Wait, I’m gonna throw you out

[01:15:41] it would’ve cost that much, ’cause it didn’t have the crazy amount of special effects. 

[01:15:46] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. 

[01:15:47] Tim: But- 

[01:15:47] Rebekah: Are we talking only as executive producer or as something else? No, 

[01:15:51] Donna: he’s director. 

[01:15:52] Tim: He’s director. He’s the director. He’s the 

[01:15:53] Rebekah: director of this 

[01:15:53] Tim: one. I, I would- Yeah, yeah … I would say one of the Batman films, but… Oh, yeah.

[01:15:58] Dark Knight Rises. Ooh, Tenet? Hmm. 

[01:15:59] Rebekah: I know Justice… Oh, he’s director. That wasn’t the same. Uh- Interstellar? Looks like Interstellar- 

[01:16:08] Tim: Ooh, 

[01:16:08] Rebekah: that- Or Tenet may be the answers, right? 

[01:16:12] Donna: So one of you did hit it. It’s Dark Knight Rises. Oh. 

[01:16:17] Josiah: So, so it’s a superhero 

[01:16:19] Rebekah: film. Whoa. Yeah. 

[01:16:19] Josiah: Yep. 

[01:16:19] Donna: I mean, it’s funny because that’s several years ago- Yeah, 12

[01:16:23] and so that tells you, that does tell you though- Is that a decade ago? More than a decade … 

[01:16:27] Josiah: he, it 

[01:16:27] Donna: does tell you- 14 years … say a little bit about the fact that he’s not driven by, oh, well this one has to be better. This one has to cost more money. Right. Well, I’ve got, I can use- This is 

[01:16:36] Tim: my second one, it has to be more 

[01:16:38] Donna: expensive- I kind of found that-

[01:16:38] than 

[01:16:39] Tim: the last one. 

[01:16:39] Donna: Yeah … yeah, I kind of found that interesting. Uh, the opening weekend, 123.5 million. Uh, that was in 3,919 theaters. So the big wide release, a big IMAX release, kept Spider-Man out of IMAX, which is interesting. ‘Cause, uh, newsflash, Spider-Man blew him out of the water for the first weekend.

[01:17:03] That’s beside the point. Uh, USA/Canada gross, 359 million to, to date. It’s been out a few weeks now. And international gross, 363 million. So as of the first weekend in August, it has bo- had a box office take of 722 million. I think he’s gonna make his money back. Um 

[01:17:29] Rebekah: Uh, did you know that Spider-Man: Brand New Day has surpassed- Yeah

[01:17:35] the Odyssey- Oh … as of its first weekend? 

[01:17:37] Josiah: Massively killed it. Did you see that it made, it broke the record- Ooh, 

[01:17:40] Rebekah: yeah … 

[01:17:40] Josiah: for biggest ever opening weekend? Yep. 

[01:17:42] Rebekah: Mm-hmm, 

[01:17:43] Donna: mm-hmm. 

[01:17:44] Rebekah: Over Endgame, which is crazy. Like 3 

[01:17:48] Josiah: million. Is that 900? Over- 

[01:17:49] Rebekah: Crazy. Yeah. It’s $932 million right now. And it’s, it- It has been out for five days

[01:17:53] Donna: and it broke the first day record as well. Mm-hmm. So it, it’s- Yep … slaughtered. Uh, it was filmed in Morocco, Western Sahara, Greece, Italy, Iceland, Scotland, and the US, uh, between February 25th and August 5th of 2025. I have, uh, just a very short mini-game, a little, another little trivia thing. Okay. Um- Yeah … I already established that this movie was rated R.

[01:18:21] Uh, this is the fourth film directed by Christopher Nolan that was R-rated. Can you name the other three? 

[01:18:29] Tim: I think the Batman one that had, um, Bane in it 

[01:18:33] Josiah: I think those are all PG-13. 

[01:18:36] Tim: You think? 

[01:18:36] Josiah: Yeah, I think- Is Oppenheimer rated R? … Oppenheimer’s rated R. It has- Oppenheimer … it has nudity. 

[01:18:41] Donna: Oppenheimer’s rated R.

[01:18:43] Oh, yeah, Florence and the Machine. Yeah. Memento 

[01:18:44] Josiah: is rated R, right? Memento is rated very R. And then- Yeah, okay … the one, is it gonna be the one before that? S- like, Insomnia? 

[01:18:57] Donna: That’s them. 

[01:18:58] Josiah: Insomnia? It’s good. 

[01:18:58] Tim: You are so good. 

[01:19:00] Josiah: Insomnia- Memento 

[01:19:01] Donna: and Insomnia and Oppenheimer … 

[01:19:02] Josiah: Insomnia is his least Nolan-esque. 

[01:19:03] Donna: I’ve not seen Memento and Op- and Insomnia.

[01:19:06] I’ve heard good, I’ve heard things about them, like I should probably see 

[01:19:11] Josiah: them, but- Insomnia doesn’t matter- Um … that much. I think the big thing is Robin Williams plays a bad guy. That’s interesting. 

[01:19:17] Rebekah: Mm. So final verdicts, I’m gonna go first. 

[01:19:20] Donna: Okay. 

[01:19:21] Rebekah: All right. The book. I got… I’m so sorry. Okay, I, you know what? I need to put my, like, fairness hat on.

[01:19:30] Tim: Fairness. 

[01:19:31] Rebekah: I rated Lombardo’s translation, ’cause that’s what I read. I liked the way he wrote it, and it was followable. This was an epic poem supposedly written in the 8th century BC. I cannot hold it to a standard of a 2025, 2026 book, okay? So knowing all those things, it is one of the most culturally relevant books that has ever been written.

[01:19:54] So I’m gonna give it, like, an eight and a half out of 10, because how could you not? Like, it’s so relevant. I don’t know that I enjoyed it an eight and a half out of 10. It was hard to follow because, not the way it was written. W- and mine was fine, but just following a book- Mm … that is j- well, following a poem, like an epic poem is tough.

[01:20:15] Like, it was hard. So the film, I have incredibly mixed feelings. We haven’t gotten into, like, a zillion things that I would kinda like to talk about- Mm-hmm … that we just don’t have time for or space for, and this is not the podcast for it. But there were a lot of things that I think were subtle changes that I was not a fan of from the perspective of, like, how they tried to change the way that culture was displayed.

[01:20:39] Um, but I mean, it’s Hollywood. I probably should just expect what I expect. So I enjoyed the film. I did not like that they made Odysseus less selfish. I think that the cruelty and the selfishness and the bizarre grimness of the poem were- Mm. Yeah … interesting. Like, it was interesting and relevant for when it was written, and I kind of wish that we had just gotten that film.

[01:21:05] But that film would not have made its money. Um, and Christopher Nolan probably wouldn’t have made it in the first place. So I think the film for me was, like, an eight out of 10. I was… There were a few things I didn’t love. A couple of special effects were a little weird, and then honestly, the only reason I’m not giving it, like, a nine-something is more the, like, kind of ethical conundrums I have that are just…

[01:21:28] They’re minor. Like, they’re, you know, compared to a lot of other crap that’s come out over the last 10 years, I’m not super upset about it. And I really enjoyed the film. Mm. I would like to go see it one more time at least, uh, because our theater had a power surge when we were in the actual theater. So about 40 minutes into the film, it went off for 35 minutes.

[01:21:48] Like, we listened- Ooh … to about 10 minutes of it with no screens, but everything restarted. It is a digital IMAX, so it didn’t destroy the film- Mm … but, you know, ’cause as we talked about, that’s crazy. Um, but I did… It get, got cut right before the, um, the scene with Polyphemus or whatever his name is, the, um- 

[01:22:10] Donna: Cyclops 

[01:22:12] Rebekah: Cyclops.

[01:22:13] Thank you. I almost said Calypso, and I’m like, “That’s definitely not it.” Um, so I would like to see it again where it’s, like, all the way through because the immersion breaking was really rough in that moment. But, uh, he did a great job adapting it for 2026 for Hollywood. Like, in the situation that we live in, it’s probably the best adaptation you could have had, so.

[01:22:33] Donna: All right. I will go, uh, after my lovely daughter. Um, I read Fagles, or I listened to Fagles. Uh, Ian McKellen has a very pleasant reading voice. It was not hard to listen to him. It wasn’t hard to keep up with him But I, I s- I did struggle to, to stay in a f- in a story, in a focused story. Part of that is my deficit, and I know that.

[01:23:07] I, I, um, I just could not… I kept up with it, and I was very determined that I was going to be focused on it, and I was, so I don- I don’t, I didn’t, I didn’t not finish it or, or lose it or whatever. Um, but I think there were, there were parts of it that I did miss because I was trying to think through other things that I had just heard or what he built up to or whatever.

[01:23:36] Um, so I would give the book, uh, I would say a seven, um, for m- mostly for the reason I, I, I would say it, like Rebecca said, I might give this, this version a little higher version, but it was hard for me to follow in, in many respects. Um, the film

[01:24:05] You’re right. We could do a total extra bonus episode and sit here for two days and talk about what we thought about this and that, little picky things about the film. But my overarching thought is this: I walked out of Dark Knight and … Well, I’ve been e- and Dark Knight Rises, and Interstellar, and Inception, and Oppenheimer, and Dunkirk.

[01:24:36] We didn’t, never mention, we didn’t, never talked, we, that, that one didn’t come up. I walked out of those films in awe. I was so moved by them, even maybe if there were parts I didn’t care for. I, I was, I was emotionally moved. This, to me, was just a good story. It wasn’t … I, I, I’m not gonna trash it because I didn’t dislike it.

[01:24:59] I do want to see it again because I want to give it another opportunity to really awe me. Um- I, I think, I mean, that’s really the biggest takeaway for me, and maybe that’s, that’s not Christopher Nolan’s fault. That’s on me for wa- thinking, “I’m gonna walk out of this.” Good experiences don’t all have to end in the ve- with the same feeling, and I, I recognize that.

[01:25:29] So I’m gonna give the movie, uh, for m- me personally, I’ll say an eight. If I see it again, I’ll probably s- I might give it a higher rating, but here’s the deal. All those other movies I mentioned, I’ve watched again and again, and a few of them I’ve watched m- many, many times. And this one, I have not been compelled to just go back and see it.

[01:25:56] Like, I’m so excited to go back and see Spider-Man right now. If there… It’s currently 10:41 PM. If there was an 11 o’clock show and I thought I could stay up, I’d go see it. I’m so excited to go back and see it. I’ve felt that way before about previous Nolan movies. But the other thing I took away from this that’s not rating is I don’t mind spoilers for things.

[01:26:19] That doesn’t bother me to know this or that’s gonna go on. And so I watched a lot of reviewers hate and love on either side before this came out, and this is the first time I wish I hadn’t done that because people, they thought that Lupita Nyong’o was gonna be somebody else, and they thought that L. and Elliott Page was gonna be somebody else.

[01:26:41] And they thought… And they, they- True … went through all this supposing of how awful this was gonna be, and it ruined my first experience with it, and that’s, that’s another reason I wanna go back and see it. So kudos to Nolan. The big scenes were big. The loud scenes were loud and incredible. The storm scene, I was genuinely afraid in the middle of the storm.

[01:27:07] Uh, so that, those were great takeaways for me, so that’s my 

[01:27:11] Rebekah: thing. Fun fact. Yeah. Uh, the loudest scene of the film was when, uh, Polyphemus or Polyf- Po- Polyphemus … Polyphemus scr- Yeah … yes, screams, uh, after, uh- Mm-hmm … it’s stabbed in the eye. Yeah. And it is 125 decibels, uh, in most IMAX cinemas, which is very close to the incredibly loud 128 decibel peak in The Dark Knight.

[01:27:41] So it’s, like, one of the loudest scenes in modern cinema. I would’ve 

[01:27:44] Josiah: assumed it was the 

[01:27:45] Rebekah: ship. So pretty cool. 

[01:27:48] Josiah: Goodness 

[01:27:49] Rebekah: That was super loud too. I, I- That was a good- I closed my 

[01:27:51] Josiah: eyes … 

[01:27:51] Rebekah: I think I was, like, literally 

[01:27:52] Donna: anxious during that 

[01:27:53] Rebekah: scene. 

[01:27:53] Donna: I think that was more… I think it was cha- I think that was a more chaotic sound than what the Cyclops was, is probably why it seemed like it was louder.

[01:28:01] Yeah. But… 

[01:28:02] Josiah: Well, I can go. Mm. I think that the translation I read, I mostly enjoyed it. I think I can get on board with something that Emily Wilson and Chris Nolan both believe in. I don’t think it’s popular, but old stories, in our opinion- … do not need to be told in English with fancy King James English and a British accent.

[01:28:33] Donna: Sure. 

[01:28:33] Josiah: And I appreciated that Claire Danes was just reading this audiobook. Emily Wilson was just writing it, and Chris Nolan had everyone- Yeah … speak in American accents. It was, like, proper English- Sure … but it wasn’t fancy English. Telemachus… There were some people… I, it didn’t bother… I didn’t even think about it for a second, but it bothered some people that Telemachus called Odysseus his dad instead of father.

[01:28:59] Donna: Yeah. “

[01:28:59] Josiah: He’s my dad,” or something like that. I, I don’t know what the line was. 

[01:29:02] Donna: Yeah. 

[01:29:03] Josiah: Didn’t bother me at all. 

[01:29:03] Donna: Yeah. My dad’s coming home, yeah. 

[01:29:06] Josiah: It, like, they didn’t speak in British King James English either. It’s just shorthand that I think it’d be good if we got over, as a society, that British automatically means old and fancy.

[01:29:21] I, I enjoyed the translation- Sure … insomuch as I could enjoy this story, very old. You know, as a classic, as an epic that preserves a, a story from history in a bygone era before they really wrote things down, you know. You get a 9.5, 10 out of 10 for the, the idea of the story- Mm-hmm … the, the impact of the story.

[01:29:50] Just for enjoying it nowadays, maybe a, a soft 8 out of 10, 7.9 out of 10 for the book. Uh, I was surprised at how much time was spent on the ending, on him after he got home. 

[01:30:09] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[01:30:09] Josiah: I looked at the time and I was like, “How am I… How do I still have seven chapters left?” It’s only, like, 30 chapters in the whole book.

[01:30:17] He’s back home. I… And in the movie I also thought- … “Huh, there’s a lot of this.” He’s, like, maintaining his disguise, and he’s not telling everyone right away. Yeah. And he’s gotta visit the goat, he’s gotta visit the swine herd, he’s gotta pet the dog, he’s gotta be coy with Telemachus, all this stuff. So it took a, took a lot, while.

[01:30:37] But I was engaged, especially after he made it home. It was easy for me to stay engaged. Uh, movie was great. It’s definitely in my top half of Nolan films. I don’t care about Dunkirk. I wanna re-watch Tenet, but it’s, you know, just kinda fine. I wish Interstellar’s ending treated me smarter. Dark Knight Rises was a little messy.

[01:31:04] But, uh, it’s in the top half for me, The Odyssey. I think it’s appropriately big I think that it is epic. I can definitely see it enduring in a way that… Okay, so imagine 50 years from now, what mo- what Nolan films are we gonna be talking about? I think we’re talking about Dark Knight. The Dark Knight. I think we’re talking about Interstellar, even with the ending that I don’t- Mm-hmm

[01:31:32] completely believe, believe in. It’s probably gonna be his most beautiful movie he ever makes. Uh- Mm. I think Oppenheimer- Mm-hmm … is gonna stand the test of time, and I think- Sure … that Odyssey will stand the test of time. Even though, like, I like Prestige better probably, um, I think I like Oppenheimer better.

[01:31:50] Something about The Odyssey… Chris Nolan knows what Mr. Bone, rest in peace, my marching band instructor, who I can’t believe passed away. He couldn’t have been… Was he 50 yet? Crazy. 

[01:32:03] Donna: Uh, 54. 

[01:32:04] Josiah: But when I was in high school, he was trying to describe his process of making these epic marching band shows, and he was like, “Chris Nolan gets it.”

[01:32:13] Donna: Mm. 

[01:32:15] Josiah: The inception- Yeah … it’s one word. You don’t need to fully know what it means, but it’s an idea. Let’s show what that idea means. It’s cool. It’s epic. We’re gonna take the audience on a ride, and it’s gonna mean something deeper. 

[01:32:27] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. 

[01:32:27] Josiah: And I, I don’t know if it was Mr. Bone inspiring me or if he was kinda saying what I was already thinking subconsciously.

[01:32:35] But I think The Odyssey has a lot of themes in there that are gonna stand the test of time as well. Uh, some from the original Odyssey, some that he kind of invented. I am anti-war, you know. You gotta go to war sometimes, but never… I don’t think it’s something to be relished to, uh, to be good at murdering.

[01:32:59] Uh, and The Odyssey movie, more than the book, is very, uh, critical of, of war- warfare, of these powerful men declaring, “I want this land that my grandfather had access to the trade routes next to,” something like that. And it was impactful for me. Game of Thrones was, was a big thing for me to see it’s like, oh, war isn’t all being cool.

[01:33:33] Like, you’re killing, you’re raping and pillaging- Mm … and stuff like that. And to see Matt Damon’s O- Odysseus, I thought… Maybe it’s ’cause compared to the version I read, it was a, it was a different… But, uh, I thought Matt Damon brought a nuance that he was not a good guy, but he was not a bad guy. He was determined.

[01:33:53] I, honestly, I’m confused what Emily Wilson means by he didn’t want… One of, part of her, uh, criticism was that he didn’t wanna go home enough. What? I didn’t get that from the movie. I didn’t get that from Matt Damon. Sorry, 

[01:34:06] Rebekah: the point of the story, you didn’t like that Emily Wilson- 

[01:34:09] Josiah: He, she- That 

[01:34:10] Rebekah: he wanted 

[01:34:10] Josiah: to go home

[01:34:10] she wanted him to go home, want to go home more. She didn’t think that Matt Damon wanted it enough. 

[01:34:16] Rebekah: Mm. 

[01:34:16] Josiah: I didn’t quite get- Indeed … what she’s talking about. Um, so I give the movie, I think, I think it’s a solid 8.9 out of 10. So I’m gonna say the movie was better. 

[01:34:28] Tim: That leaves me, and I will go ahead and give you the scores first.

[01:34:33] Um, I would say the book for me was probably an 8.1, and I really enjoyed it. And the film, I would give it a 7.9, maybe an 8. It was just a little less. I liked the extra detail in the book. I thought the film was well done. I was very grateful that some of the, uh, concern and hype about the film, uh, was unnecessary, um, and- Yeah

[01:35:12] unsubstantiated. I, I’m glad for that. There were some parts of the film that I thought were, were really strange, and I, and I am of the mind that we need to be, we need to be honest about history and things that happened and why they happened, and we need to stop trying to clean up history and make it fit into- Mm

[01:35:42] our 21st century understanding of things. Um, because people did things that they felt were the right things for what they felt were the right reasons. Yeah. Um, and that happened throughout history. Uh, because we think today this thing or that thing shouldn’t have been, let’s call it something different, or let’s judge it- Yeah

[01:36:10] by today. Th- that’s dange- that’s a dangerous thing because when we do that, we are encouraging others to judge us, uh, f- the same way. When we get 50 years past or 100 years past or 200 years past, um, and people look back and say, “Well, those were terrible people.” And we don’t feel like we’re terrible people.

[01:36:35] We’re doing, and doing the things we think need to be done in the way that they need to be done given today. And so I li- I prefer, uh, dealing with history, uh, in the facts of history and doing a lot less judging of it. Um- Mm-hmm … because those things were done in the context of the time in which those people lived.

[01:37:01] Um, and so I, I think we have to be careful of that, and I appreciated the fact that the book is honest about that. Um, we understand- Mm … that when you call somebody a servant, um, we know what that means. You know, they give their life to service. A slave is a little different. Um, but functionally- Mm … it’s not much different at all.

[01:37:32] Um- 

[01:37:33] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. 

[01:37:34] Tim: And so I think, I think we need to be careful how we, how we judge history. But I think the film, um, the film took out a few things that I think were important. Uh, uh, the book emphasizes that the gods use humanity as pawns. I think taking that out- It seemed to give the human beings more agency, but it was less like the story.

[01:38:03] Um- 

[01:38:04] Donna: Mm. Sure … 

[01:38:04] Tim: so, so I would give it just a little bit less. Thought it was well done. It looks epic, but I did not leave the film thinking, “Wow, I, I wanna see that again.” Yeah. Or, “That was something,” you know, “That was just really something.” I left the film thinking, “That was, that was well done,” and just a little- Mm

[01:38:29] lackluster. Um, not terrible at all. Well done, but not, not fantastic kind of thing. So- Not Nolan 

[01:38:40] Donna: fantastic. 

[01:38:40] Rebekah: Like, not his best. 

[01:38:42] Tim: Exactly. Yeah. There were, there are things he’s done that, that I left the theater thinking, “Wow,” like Donna was saying, and this one was not one of those. 

[01:38:51] Rebekah: Very true. All right. So, uh, thank you guys for recording this episode with me.

[01:38:57] I love you, and it’s nice to be deeply entrenched in season four, you know? I’m loving it. Yeah. Uh, if this is your first time listening to the podcast, uh, thanks for joining. If this is not your first time and you haven’t left a five-star rating or review yet, what are you doing? Do you even care about us?

[01:39:16] Are you a baby listener or not? What about a podcast? Go do it, please. Also, you can support us on Patreon. Uh, we have been scheming up a bunch of fun, uh, ways to do bonus content, and, uh, it’s also just a great way, especially now that we’ve gotten season four up and running, to get notified when new episodes drop so that you don’t have to wonder.

[01:39:40] You can also use Discord, uh, if you join us on Patreon first. So that’s another, that’s another fun thing that you should be doing. Uh, you can also find us all over the place on social at BookIsBetterPod. And, uh, until next time, The Odyssey, The Odyssey. Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. I can’t do iambic pentameter. Pa. I don’t know how to do- 

[01:40:03] Tim: Well, that’s not iambic pentameter

[01:40:03] The Odyssey. The Odyssey. Get those beggars out of here. Somebody get those beggars out of here. Polynesian peninsula. Da, da, da, dun, dun, dun, 

[01:40:04] Josiah: pa.

[01:40:08] Tim: Da-

[01:40:13] Rebekah: Is that the most annoying sound you ever heard? This is the most annoying sound you ever heard 

[01:40:17] Tim: Wee, wee, wee, wee, wee. 

[01:40:19] Rebekah: I love it. Oh, I am wondering if Josiah’s video’s ever gonna unfreeze for me, but I’m gonna just guess no- He’s moving on me … and move on. It’s fine. 

[01:40:26] Donna: He’s got it 

[01:40:29] Rebekah: I don’t like that. I don’t like the way that that came off.

[01:40:31] I don’t like that