S02E20 — Prince Caspian

SPOILER ALERT: This episode and transcript below contains major spoilers for Prince Caspian.

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Featuring hosts Timothy Haynes, Donna Haynes, Rebekah Edwards, and T. Josiah Haynes.

We’re back in Narnia—where centuries have passed, trees are silent, and Caspian suddenly has a jawline and unresolved feelings for Susan. The book meanders with deep themes minus our favorite talking beavers; the movie says “what if Aragorn, but teenaged?” We’ve got opinions, laughs, and one big question: did anyone actually want that castle raid scene?

Final Verdicts

If you haven’t listened to the episode yet, we recommend waiting to read our verdicts. (But you’re probably grown, so do what you want!)

The book gives us a slow-burn return to Narnia, where the Pevensies help Caspian reclaim the throne with Aslan guiding the way—eventually. The movie throws in bonus battles, brooding stares, and a random Susan-Caspian flirtation no one asked for.

Donna: The book was better.
– Book Score: 8.5/10
– Movie Score: 7.2/10

Rebekah: The book was better.
– Book Score: 7/10
– Movie Score: 5.5/10

Josiah: The movie was better.
– Book Score: 4.5/10
– Movie Score 7.5/10

Tim: The movie was better.
– Book Score: 7.5/10
– Movie Score 8/10

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Full Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Rebekah: So I’ve read at least 50 books and I’ll keep reading more and more. Then I’ll watch the films to match those books to enrich your minds right out the door.

[00:00:18] Josiah: Wow. Awesome. A bonafide tenor. Yeah, baby. 

[00:00:22] Rebekah: Happy 50th. Yeah. Hook to film adaptation episode. Woo. Release the balloons.

[00:00:39] Rebekah: Hey, welcome to the book is Better podcast. Hello. We are a mom and a dad and a daughter and a son who are also sister and brother. And we review book to film adaptations for your listening pleasure. Today’s episode, we’ll talk about it a little bit later, but uh, this is our 50th [00:01:00] recording of a book to film adaptation episode.

[00:01:02] Rebekah: So good job everyone. Good follow through. Good follow through. Uh, but today we are going to be discussing Prince Caspian, which is part of the Chronicles of Narnia. We’re gonna talk about the book, we’re gonna spoil it, we’re gonna talk about the film and spoil that too. We’ll also be spoiling line the witch in the wardrobe, although I’m not sure why that would matter ’cause you probably already watched it.

[00:01:24] Rebekah: If you’re listening to this episode. And we may randomly discuss a few things that happen later in the Narnia plot, but if I’m being honest, I don’t remember much after this. ’cause I haven’t read them in so long, so maybe not, maybe no additional spoilers. So we’ll see. Um, our fun fact today for us to introduce ourselves, uh, please tell us your name and your position in the family.

[00:01:47] Rebekah: And then tell us when you were young, did you dream or imagine of living in another place or time? 

[00:01:55] Donna: I’ll start. So, my name’s Donna. I’m the wife and mom [00:02:00] when I was young. Uh, I, I don’t have a wildly creative imagination about like anything. And so you’re so creative, mom, I’m not the way you all are. I mean, that’s okay.

[00:02:16] Donna: That’s not being de I’m not seeing self-deprecating. I, I really know. I don’t think exactly in ways like the three of you do, I think you have with these ama amazing imaginations. But I did have this, uh, I did have an imaginary boyfriend one time. Okay? Yeah. And. I just, you know, I may have mentioned a few times to my friends, I had this boyfriend that none of them would ever meet or know.

[00:02:43] Donna: And I don’t know, I, I never, I wasn’t one of those girls that like dreamed my whole life of this fairytale wedding. You know, they girls talk about all these things. I just wasn’t that girl. So, but I did have a, a, a fun [00:03:00] little, you know, handholding relationship with this boy that I made up. Uh, that didn’t last long.

[00:03:07] Donna: I moved, I moved back into reality quickly and yeah, it didn’t work. He wasn’t that as, he wasn’t nearly as great as I thought he was gonna be. Well, your imaginary boyfriend didn’t live up to your expectations. He didn’t live up 

[00:03:21] Rebekah: to my expectations. So I see what you mean when you’re saying that you’re not that creative.

[00:03:26] Donna: Yeah. God knew that dad was on the way and he knew he would fulfill all my dreams. And so, you know, that’s how that goes. 

[00:03:33] Josiah: I’m Josiah. I am the brother and the son of this mischief, which is a collective noun for mice. 

[00:03:42] Donna: Oh, 

[00:03:43] Josiah: that’s great. Ah, mischief. Probably dreamt of living in the Star Wars prologue, prequel movies.

[00:03:54] Josiah: Yeah. I was always being a Jedi here and there. I was too young to realize they were [00:04:00] bad. I would watch them over the Disney sequel trilogy any day. They’re a lot more fun than that. But, uh, I guess eventually it turned into kind of the avatar, the last Airbender world, pretending like I could bend the air and, but not the 

[00:04:14] Donna: bad movie.

[00:04:16] Donna: Do you mean the animated series on television? 

[00:04:18] Josiah: No. I was, uh, fortunately old enough when the movie came out to accept, recognize that the movie doesn’t have to exist, uh, in my memory and I can just forget that it’s a thing. 

[00:04:32] Rebekah: Hmm. Well my name is Rebecca. I’m the daughter slash sister of the family. Um, I think I’ve, any imaginary place or world that I’ve always imagined living was based in some form of sci-fi.

[00:04:48] Rebekah: ’cause that’s probably since being young, what I resonated most with, I don’t know that I had a lot of specifics in mind. Although Xenon Girl of the 21st century lives on a space stay, which [00:05:00] is what they call the Space Station. Mm. It’s in 2049, which is like 24 years from now. Um, with lots 

[00:05:07] Donna: of technology that, 

[00:05:08] Rebekah: you know, maybe we’ll have in 2049, I was really into the outfits that they wore.

[00:05:14] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. And I thought, I hope fashion becomes like this. And now I think, I hope fashion is not like that. Um, I watched these, I own the movies. They’re Disney Channel originals, and so I had to like, buy them on this cd, third party site. Um, but I do have them and I can watch them now. Uh, but that was probably the most imaginary world I’ve thought about living on.

[00:05:35] Josiah: Zoom. Zoom, zoom. 

[00:05:37] Rebekah: I go, boom. Boom. 

[00:05:40] Tim: Oh boy. Nova 

[00:05:41] Rebekah: girl. Okay. Sorry. 

[00:05:44] Tim: Well, my name is Tim. I’m the dad and husband, uh, of our mischief. I probably fantasized about living in another place in time, a lot. Uh, there were times when I dreamt of being in the [00:06:00] time of nights and riding horses. There were times when I was, I wanted to be in Star Trek, the original series, and, uh, I have a tendency to, to do that.

[00:06:12] Tim: So I’ve, I’ve always wondered what it would be like. Uh, as an adult, I’ve thought, you know, there are some things that I really am glad we have that they didn’t have. In some of those times. Even thinking about adventures and things in a more primitive time. And, uh, I think, wow, I really like the convenience of indoor toilets.

[00:06:33] Tim: At some point you begin to think of the reality of what that world would be like. Yeah, so. 

[00:06:41] Donna: Well the heaven sees are back baby. The four Kings and queens of Narnie have find themselves once again, children in a magical land. But the magic seems to have been lost. Oh, no. Oh no, God. Instead, Nia has fallen [00:07:00] into a sad and desolate place.

[00:07:01] Donna: Some 1300 years after the last book has ended, the Tell Marine Marines drove the magical creatures into hiding, and Aslan hasn’t been seen for over a millennia. Caspian the he apparent to his evil. Uncle Lord slash King EZ escapes his family kind of family, the best he’s got at the time, and seeks help from the old Ians to reclaim his throne.

[00:07:30] Donna: Peter Susan Edmond and Little Toothless Lucy are summoned along with, along with Asland by Caspian blowing Susan’s magical horn to summons them, and they unite with Caspian, the magical creatures and other rebels to restore Narnia from the tyranny of Mraz. The story concludes, as Meraz and the Telmar Marines are defeated, Caspian is deemed the true king, and Aslan brings the world [00:08:00] of magic back to life.

[00:08:04] Donna: But wait, the four siblings then return again to England, the older two. Learning from Aslan. That they are never to return. Kill me at the beginning of the podcast. 

[00:08:19] Rebekah: Well, as we discuss the differences from the book to the film today, we’re gonna start with characters. Then we’ll get into some of the plot and timeline and then end on a few setting changes.

[00:08:30] Rebekah: Uh, mom again, if you would like to start us off, feel free 

[00:08:33] Donna: in the film. Lord Meez is not a king, but acting as one. Though the other lords in his counsel clearly know him as the one aiming to take the throne. In the book, however, Meraz is king because he killed Caspian’s father to usurp the throne from him.

[00:08:51] Donna: And Caspian is his heir apparent until Mraz’s wife bears a son. I wondered if maybe they changed it up a little [00:09:00] bit because the movie is already darker than the first one. So I kind of wondered if they left out the, didn’t make as big a deal as. His Kim killing his father or whatever. 

[00:09:11] Rebekah: Yeah. I don’t think that was a big part of it, but I was confused like the first time he met with the council because they kept calling him Lord Mraz.

[00:09:18] Rebekah: So then I checked back in the book and it’s King Mraz. So I thought that was just such a strange, I don’t know if it’s just me, but like this didn’t make any sense to me as a film change. Like him being the king made sense because he was the one they had to defeat in order to bring back the old Ians and the magic and all of that stuff.

[00:09:38] Rebekah: So this just felt like an unnecessary thing to add this other thing that, I don’t know, it didn’t make sense to me at all, but 

[00:09:44] Tim: perhaps the film makers thought that it would, it would make it a clearer picture when some of them betray him. Maybe they would, they would’ve considered him more equal, although he was highest among equals type of thing.

[00:09:59] Josiah: [00:10:00] Yeah. If, I mean, I don’t assume that the filmmakers put this amount of thought into it, but if I personally were usurping my nephew or, you know, a, a throne from a teenager or what have you, one of the ways, you know, you’d, you’d think about softening that blow of treason or whatever is like, oh, I’m not king.

[00:10:22] Josiah: I’m just like, I’m a steward, Lord. I’m a regent, so just call me Lord Meraz. I’ll take the powers of the king. I don’t want the title because I’m not king. I’m not a usper, but I doubt that’s what Disney or whoever was really going for. I don’t know. 

[00:10:39] Tim: Mm. It it’s a lot of kings. It’s strange. It is a little strange and 

[00:10:42] Josiah: unnecessary.

[00:10:43] Josiah: I think perhaps, I mean, I think it tells, it reminds you throughout the movie that he’s not the rightful king. Uh, maybe it, 

[00:10:52] Donna: maybe it, maybe it ramped up the conflict a little bit, knowing he wanted to be king, but didn’t really have the title. I don’t know. I, I, there had to be some thought [00:11:00] about it because he is clearly the king in the book.

[00:11:03] Donna: Like I mm-hmm. Yeah. Who knows where is Adamson? Where’s the director? So we can figure this out. Another 

[00:11:09] Rebekah: character change is that Prince Caspian is aged up in the film. I was a little thrown by this, ’cause again, I watched the film kind of in the middle of listening to the audio book, but in the book he’s about 13, I think they call him a boy king at one point.

[00:11:25] Rebekah: Um, perhaps, yeah. And in the film he’s like maybe 17. He looked, he’s basically Peter’s age. Um, it looks like they’re about the same. And, uh, yeah, it threw me off. ’cause the, then I went back to the book and the reader uses a very young voice because he’s supposed to be a boy, not like an almost man. Um, so it was a little bit confusing, but, you know, 

[00:11:45] Tim: well he still has, he still has te in the book.

[00:11:48] Tim: He still has teachers and he ha up until recently, he still had a nurse. Right. Uh, that took care of him. So, and I think that as you move forward in the books, um, [00:12:00] Eustis is closer to his age, um, when they get to the next book, uh, when they introduce Eustis. Perhaps one reason for Caspian’s increased age is the added film only romance subplot kind of between himself and Susan.

[00:12:17] Tim: In the book, the two exchange a little more than polite formalities. But in the film, they flirt subtly several times and Susan kisses the new king before departing for her world never to return to Narnia. It’s not awkward leaving broken hearted or 

[00:12:33] Rebekah: unbelievable 

[00:12:34] Donna: at all, 

[00:12:36] Josiah: or rushed in between takes or anything.

[00:12:40] Donna: The, uh, actor who portrayed Caspian, Ben Barnes was concerned that they cast him, but he thought he was like old, too old to be Caspian. So I think it’s interesting. How Yes. We find in, you know, in the book, he was like 13 years old. He was very young. They definitely aged him [00:13:00] and I wondered if part of that was thinking about maybe adding a little romantic something between, they had a few looks at each other through the film, but it was the romance.

[00:13:09] Donna: It was so random. The stuff 

[00:13:10] Rebekah: with Peter, I think for sure. I 

[00:13:11] Tim: think the stuff with Peter was probably, yeah, a large part of it as well. He would be on an even footing with Right. Peter. And so their conflict as to who’s in charge, which didn’t exist. Yeah. 

[00:13:24] Rebekah: Well there’s some of it. We’ll get there, we’ll get there.

[00:13:26] Rebekah: Let’s talk about Susan first. Sorry. Okay, 

[00:13:28] Donna: sorry. So Susan is also portrayed differently in the film than the book she, like Lucy, was with Aslan during the major conflict and she remains gentle and and cautious through the story. The film instead puts her like on the front lines of battle actress Anna Popwell was quoted as being glad that Susan quote uses her bow unquote and director Andrew Adamson justified this change when asked by suggesting that Louis’s original portrayal of Susan made her [00:14:00] passive because of quote, outdated views on women unquote.

[00:14:04] Donna: Well, I’m so glad we gave her 

[00:14:05] Rebekah: relationship that she had to be romantically interested in someone to be less outdated. What are you, what are you saying? You literally talked outta both sides of your mouth, dude, 

[00:14:15] Donna: and I don’t, I don’t think Lewis portrayed women as lesser. I didn’t, I don’t get the impression.

[00:14:21] Donna: I mean, the queen of this whole thing is Lucy in her amazing faith. So it’s not, I, I don’t know. I don’t, I guess I, yeah, 

[00:14:30] Josiah: I guess from a secular point of view, cs, I guess that’s 

[00:14:32] Donna: the word. Secular. 

[00:14:34] Josiah: Yeah. People are seeing CS Lewis as well. Why can’t women go to battle? Which I think CS Lewis was kind of saying if battle, he said in the first book, battle’s ugly.

[00:14:44] Josiah: Yeah. Like you shouldn’t want to go to battle. 

[00:14:46] Rebekah: What we’re saying is that CS Lewis viewed women as you know, in a lot of ways different than men, which depending on who you are, might be really, really women offensive. So, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:14:59] Donna: But, but [00:15:00] Popplewell did, she did complain. I mean, I did read a couple different things on that.

[00:15:05] Donna: She did complain about it because she was like, Susan’s an archer and I had to learn this and then line the witch in the wardrobe. I didn’t get to use that much. I wanna shoot more. 

[00:15:14] Rebekah: I didn’t really mind that she was in the battle scenes. Like I didn’t think that that was weird. I just like Anna Popwell did a good job.

[00:15:21] Rebekah: I was happy with that portrayal, but it just, I don’t know if it makes her more interesting then make her more interesting. Don’t. Yeah, I just, it just bugs me. And the thing about giving her a love interest and she kisses a boy before she leaves. Are you kidding? Like, that is, if you were really concerned about outdated views on women, there’s literally like a list, I can’t remember the name of it.

[00:15:43] Rebekah: There’s like a list of movies that people compile that have this rule. What’s Josiah? You know what I’m talking about? Where it’s like, do the women talk to, does one woman talk to another woman? Backal test. What’s it called? The Bddo test. Yeah. The Bechtel test is, does one woman talk to another woman about something that is not a [00:16:00] man, like not a romantic interest specifically.

[00:16:02] Rebekah: Do they have a conversation about that in a movie? And it’s like this kind of feminist way of looking at things to make sure that women aren’t just shown on screen as like oony, like whatever. But at the same time, there’s so many tropes about the fact that like women love reading romance and being part of Rome.

[00:16:17] Rebekah: There’s a reason that romance works. But it’s just such a funny thing. It feels so like it, it just doesn’t feel consistent to me. But that, sorry, I don’t wanna complain 

[00:16:25] Donna: further. But also they kept, but they also kept Susan. They did, they did keep Susan’s personality as like more skeptical of things. Yeah.

[00:16:35] Donna: And more, not, not risk taking. Yeah. She was, she was good with her bow’s way. It’s not that she was un un Brave’s always saying, don’t 

[00:16:43] Tim: do that. It’s risky. Don’t do. That’s always, don’t do that. So 

[00:16:46] Donna: kissing a boy before you leave and you know you’ll never see him again. It does, it seems like a risky, emotional thing to do.

[00:16:54] Donna: Right. It doesn’t fit you’re, I mean, to, I’m agreeing with your point, but you know, poor Susan. Well, what about [00:17:00] the amazing Peter? 

[00:17:01] Josiah: That’s true. Peter is dramatically different, both motivation and attitude from book to film. Well, you know, in the book, Peter, the High King is gracious addressing Caspian as your majesty assuring him that, uh, you know, he says, I haven’t come to take your place, you know, but to put you into it, he supports Caspian as king right away with no hesitation.

[00:17:26] Josiah: But in contrast, the film version of Peter is, let’s say, resentful perhaps to the point of being rude. Um, I, I kind of understand it, Peter and the rest of the kids, but especially Peter. Is not very happy after being forced to live as a child for a year. You know, you, you live as high King for decades and then when you come back to the real world, you’re as a child, uh, you know, we start in real world with the train station and he starts a fight and he even says after the [00:18:00] fight, like, uh, treat me like a child.

[00:18:03] Josiah: I’m not used to people treating me like a child or anything like, or something like that. Susan’s like, we are children. We weren’t always something like that. But, uh, yeah, he and Caspian have an ongoing rivalry throughout the entire film story. Peter is impatient and prideful at one point, even seems weirdly tempted by the white witch is power, which book Peter would almost certainly never have even considered.

[00:18:27] Tim: That was weird. That was misplaced in the film. Yeah. Yeah. So 

[00:18:33] Donna: I don’t think he would’ve gotten into a fight in the real world, I don’t think. It didn’t. I could understand some of the conflict. They put in a little bit of it with him and Caspian. Okay. They’re guys robble close to the same age. Both of them are royalty, but I, but they took it.

[00:18:50] Donna: I just thought they took it too far. 

[00:18:51] Tim: It was a little strange. There are some characters that are missing, uh, Baus, Salinas and Manad, classical fun [00:19:00] and fairy characters who frolic with Aslan in the novel as he awakens the countryside are not in the film. I wonder if this change had to do with the fact that the film takes a decidedly Christian pretty view, well, a Christian view of, of the, these things, and Baku, Salinas and Meads are mythical, but not necessarily, they don’t necessarily fit in a, uh, in a Christian point of view easily.

[00:19:31] Josiah: Yeah. I wonder if CS Lewis was saying, Hey, you know, all these different little g gods from different mythologies. Yeah. That’s all describing aspects that are true in Christianity and God, big G God is in control of it all, or something like that. 

[00:19:48] Tim: Perhaps so it might’ve been confusing to keep that in the film.

[00:19:52] Josiah: Well, you know, there were some characters who were generally the same from book to film. You know, Edmund and Lucy [00:20:00] are basically the same character. Trump in the dwarf. Was that Peter Dinklage? Amazing. I love him. Yeah. Pre Pretium. Yeah. Uh, ache The Mouse. Oh, my 

[00:20:11] Rebekah: favorite. I love every Che’s the best. 

[00:20:13] Josiah: Oh, you love Repa Cheap.

[00:20:15] Josiah: Oh, great. I’m so glad someone does. 

[00:20:17] Rebekah: Everyone loves Repa 

[00:20:19] Josiah: Cheap. 

[00:20:20] Rebekah: Excuse me, sir. 

[00:20:21] Josiah: Yeah, he’s fine. He’s fine. One small but notable edition is that Edmond, my boy Edmond is a bit, um, wiser Cheekier, perhaps even braver in the film than he has shown in the books. Edmund in short, is the coolest character in the entire film.

[00:20:40] Rebekah: You’re not totally wrong, although I don’t think I agree that he’s the coolest ’cause Repa Chiefs in the film, but he was pretty awesome. 

[00:20:45] Donna: Do you think that, do you think that, like do you think he ma he visibly was older looking than the rest of them seemed to have aged in my head. Like I thought, tried to think back about the four of them because this movie was, I think there’s [00:21:00] two years, two years after or three.

[00:21:01] Donna: The first or two or three. Yeah. Yeah. Two, maybe two and a half. Um, ’cause it was in the summer, but in my head I was thinking, I think he just looked, the rest of them looked, they all looked like themselves. They hadn’t, that drastically changed, but they, it was just completely that he looked more 

[00:21:17] Rebekah: different than he and Lucy.

[00:21:20] Rebekah: Lucy really did too, I would say. That’s fair. Yeah. 

[00:21:23] Tim: Yeah. I think Lucy, Lucy probably was the most Yeah. Changed. Um, but I certainly think that Edmund appeared. More mature. Uh, he had lost, uh, lost a lot of his freckles at that point, uh, which makes you look a little more matured. And his character stands Yeah.

[00:21:44] Tim: Differently. He, he acts more mature. Yes. He was childish in the first one. Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s the character, you know, he wants this and he’s mad about this and he winds about that. You see the influence of his 

[00:21:56] Rebekah: adult life as a king. 

[00:21:58] Tim: Right. Right. And [00:22:00] this, this version of him, although he’s a child again, uh, he doesn’t, he doesn’t forget the lessons that he’s learned mm-hmm.

[00:22:08] Tim: From the last time. 

[00:22:10] Donna: I love the line. I love that they left the line in. I think they restructured just a little bit where they’re saying, Lucy, we didn’t see Aslan. We don’t see him. I’m glad that they left in the line where Edmond’s like, yeah, the last time I didn’t believe Lucy. I made some stupid mistakes 

[00:22:28] Tim: there.

[00:22:28] Tim: There are some plot and timeline changes. Uh, hopefully we get to all of them. I have one in particular in mind in a moment, but the film opens differently than the book. The film opens on Caspian’s ant giving birth to the sun. That would become the new air, whereas the book starts with the PE seas at the train station getting pulled back into Narnia.

[00:22:50] Tim: Uh, prince Caspian must rush out of his home in the middle of the night prompted by Dr. Cornelius, who is a half dwarf to avoid death by ez. These [00:23:00] events do happen in the book, but long after the heavens have returned to Narnia and attempted to figure out why they’re, they’re there. So they, they changed that a bit in the film.

[00:23:10] Tim: I think that’s probably a good change. It’s a way. Uh, Josiah talks about the show and don’t tell. Uh, it’s a way to show, you know, oh no, the, the king has had a son, so you need to leave. Why? Mm-hmm. And then they can kind of fill in the gaps. Mm-hmm. A little bit perhaps. And eventually we do find out that he killed Caspian’s dad, who was the king.

[00:23:33] Tim: And we find out that, you know, his teacher was actually a half dwarf and different things like that. So we find out. Through the book, through the movie. 

[00:23:41] Donna: Um, just a little spot of trivia here. CS Lewis, stepson, Douglas Gresham, and his, and heir to his estate. Mm-hmm. Um, he has had a part in these movies as far as kind of a, um, what’s, what’s the word I’m looking for?

[00:23:55] Donna: Cameo. Well, this, he had a cameo in the film, but in the production of the [00:24:00] movies, he’s a consultant. They did keep Gresham involved. Consultant. He was a consultant. That’s the word I was looking for. Thank you. Um, but in, if you remember in line, which in the wardrobe, he was the announcer, the radio announcer at the beginning when the war was going on.

[00:24:14] Donna: Mm-hmm. That was his, he got a piece. Well, in this movie, he is the one who announces. The Birth of the King’s, uh, of, uh, king Ra as a son. Oh, he’s the crier 

[00:24:26] Josiah: or Lord 

[00:24:27] Donna: ez. So he’s Yeah, Lord lord slash King slash Lord king. 

[00:24:31] Rebekah: Uh, so essentially within all of that story, uh, Caspian’s youth and the Escape from Mirror’s Castle instead is told to the four children in the book by the Red Dwarf, Trumpian, whom they rest mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] Rebekah: From being drowned. Um, Truken tells a much longer version of the story. It’s really truncated, um, in the film, like what parts of it get included later on. Like dad was saying, Caspian’s nurse has not mentioned only, uh, his Dr. [00:25:00] Cornel Cornelius, his tutor tutor. Um, and we have a really brief glance into Caspian’s education on the truth about Old Narnia with its magic and talking animals.

[00:25:09] Rebekah: But in Trumpkins story in the book, he gives a lot more backstory on like, even as a young child, like his nurse was telling him these things also random. But that nurse in the book does appear at the end. Um, and Aslan takes her with him, I believe, like he heals her in her very old age or something like that.

[00:25:27] Rebekah: I’m trying to remember exactly how that goes, but it’s, mm-hmm. It’s a very brief thing at the end of the, the book. 

[00:25:31] Tim: Okay. So here is one of those things that causes inconsistencies. We talk, we spoke earlier about the fact that it is Lord Mraz and only toward the end of the film, um, does he become. Is he crowned King Mraz?

[00:25:47] Tim: Whereas at the beginning of the film, it matters that he has borne an heir. Why would that matter if he’s part of a group of lords? That’s very 

[00:25:58] Rebekah: true. Who 

[00:25:59] Tim: [00:26:00] jointly ruled the kingdom? It shouldn’t matter. So it was a change for me. It was a. The earlier change we talked about was a change that caused a problem with plot, whereas the book didn’t have that problem because from the beginning it was King Mraz, so he had an heir.

[00:26:20] Tim: That makes sense? Mm-hmm. Lord, along with a group of other lords that doesn’t quite make sense that it matters that he’s had an heir until after he’s Crown King. 

[00:26:30] Donna: Not the first plot hole we’ve ever seen in a film. No, 

[00:26:32] Josiah: but I mean, I wouldn’t even, I know that this book and movie. The book was made before Game of Thrones, and the movie was made before Game of Thrones TV show.

[00:26:41] Josiah: I’ve just read so much Game of Thrones that it’s like, who cares who the heir, the whole point of Game of Thrones is there is no air, air, it is whoever has air cons. Most swords who has the, whoever has the biggest army is the heir. And Lord Mraz had the most swords, so he was gonna [00:27:00] make his son. But yes, you’re also right because CS Lewis wasn’t really, it was, it was a pre-game of Thrones world.

[00:27:07] Josiah: And I think mm-hmm. The Song of Ice and fire books really have changed the thinking on those sorts of things. So I should not give the filmmakers too much credit on making. Oh yeah. It’s definitely contextually, it makes all sorts of logical sense, eh? It does, but that’s probably not, not on purpose. Yeah. I don’t know.

[00:27:25] Josiah: Another added subplot with Mraz and his council, uh, in the film, we get more of their inner workings, the ign politicking of his, uh, you know, lords and counselors. There’s tense relationships between the Lords and his commanders and, and whether he has the authority to truly do so. You know, these things may have happened off page in the book.

[00:27:51] Josiah: Mm-hmm. But we actually get to see it in the film. It was, it was semis simplistic, again, in a post Game [00:28:00] of Thrones world, there is not going to be a fan, a political fantasy story that scratches the itch for nuance and complexity and realism, as that does for me. And most people who have watched Game of Thrones or read the books, but it was, I, I thought it was fun.

[00:28:21] Josiah: I remember as a kid thinking, oh, this is, this is interesting in a new way, you know? Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s different from Lion Witch in the wardrobe without being too different. Yeah. Uh, so, you know, I remember liking it the time and, and I think it makes sense that it’s here. Um. I, I would call it a positive change overall.

[00:28:39] Donna: Uh, another thing related to the opening sequences, a peter fighting with a schoolmate just before the children are drawn back into Narnia is a film only edition. And we mentioned that just a minute ago. It’s probably a foreshadow, and I think we just said that. Didn’t I just say it was, I think I mentioned that before.

[00:28:57] Donna: It was, um, it’s probably a, [00:29:00] a foreshadowed to the, the kind of beefed up conflict in the film that Peter has with Caspian as to who is the Better King. Um, yeah, I think to me that’s one, this is one change that I didn’t, again, I guess we, uh, we go back to, is it that extra flight that they add with Harry Potter and the Dragon?

[00:29:21] Donna: That didn’t happen. That would never have happened. The teachers would never have allowed in the gobbled of fire, but we’d better put it in there because it’ll add a little bit more sauce to the story. 

[00:29:32] Tim: I think that this, that the fight helps, helps us to realize, however, that Peter doesn’t like. Being a kid again, even though he’s a teenager.

[00:29:44] Tim: Yeah. In the first film, he makes a big deal about the fact that, you know, the people going off to war or are just a little bit older than he is. Mm-hmm. Um, and he feels like, you know, he should be going off and fighting. So in the second one, he’s lived [00:30:00] his life as a king, and now he’s back to being a kid and he’s trying to prove himself to himself.

[00:30:07] Donna: Yeah. 

[00:30:08] Tim: Um, it isn’t always a matter, uh, for a young man to, to fight and try to prove himself to other people. A lot of times he’s trying to prove himself to himself, and I think he feels like he may have lost something when they came back, or he was something that he can’t be anymore. Uh, and I think, I think the fight is a very subtle, very quick way to show that kind of thing.

[00:30:36] Tim: And if someone wants to look at it and say, well, why would he do that? Then you would see the, the more subtle nuance to what that might be. 

[00:30:43] Donna: And I think if Cassian in the book was like 13 and they did, even though they, they mm-hmm. You know, Ben Barnes was older than that, he’s portrayed as older. I guess I could also see some of the struggle because they left Narnia a year earlier and they were [00:31:00] older adults.

[00:31:01] Donna: Then when they go back to then they live that year in the, in the real world. Mm-hmm. Go back to Narnia. 

[00:31:08] Tim: And they go back as kids again, and they go back as 

[00:31:10] Donna: kids again. 

[00:31:11] Tim: Yeah. 

[00:31:11] Donna: I mean, I definitely see there is em, there has to, there’s emotional struggle there that would happen In your mind, how, how do you wrap your head around that, I guess?

[00:31:20] Donna: Yeah, 

[00:31:20] Tim: that’s one, that’s one of those things in the, in the whole series of books. Mm-hmm. Especially these first three, uh, that it’s just really difficult to wrap your head around. Would be. So it takes the children far longer in the book to realize that they’re back at care peril than it does in the movie.

[00:31:39] Tim: Um, I could understand that they also discover remnants of their former lives in the film that are not in the book. Uh, not just their Christmas gifts, save the horn, but also old clothing and armor they once had as kings and queens. I think this is probably better. Um, the book took a long time. That’s something that a book can do.

[00:31:59] Tim: Uh, if [00:32:00] you want to grab people’s attention, you need to get to the point. Um, even if you need to be subtle and it needs to take a little while, you do still have to move it along faster than the book would’ve had to do. 

[00:32:12] Rebekah: I would say I agree with the point that it’s okay for the film to kind of get to the point here, um, and move it along, because visually that’s probably better.

[00:32:22] Rebekah: I think. I don’t know though, and this is like a problem with kind of as it continues, I’m not totally convinced that it was good because it was shortly after this that I had so much trouble maintaining focus on watching this movie. Like I, I think that they like tried to move it along and then I don’t think the traveling it, like, I don’t think it worked.

[00:32:43] Rebekah: I don’t think what they did kind of in that amount of time, um, worked. I 

[00:32:49] Tim: think they probably stretched the travel part out longer, which then was like, okay, you got to the point quickly and then you put this [00:33:00] slow part in and it, it got a little too slow. 

[00:33:03] Donna: Was it just to make the movie two hours or more than two hours long?

[00:33:06] Donna: I mean, what, you know, I have to wonder sometimes. Well, there always those 

[00:33:08] Tim: kinds of concerns and I mean, we, we know that they film a whole lot more than they use, so, you know, on the. In the editor’s part, they say, well, you know, let’s speed this part up and let’s just kinda leave this part alone. You know, maybe, maybe they made a rough choice there.

[00:33:25] Tim: That wasn’t exactly the one that appeals to an audience. I don’t know. You’re saying, you’re saying the film travel log was too long? Uh, no. I, no, no. Well, the travel part, the, they do the care il quickly, then it slows down. 

[00:33:41] Rebekah: I felt like everything else until the end of the like film I didn’t wanna focus on.

[00:33:46] Rebekah: So I’m like, okay, cool. You sped up the beginning. I don’t know that I care about everything else you did. Like, I don’t know, it was just hard for me. I’m like, well why speed it up? I was actually interested in that part. And then, I mean the travel was like, okay, but [00:34:00] anyway, that’s like a kind of a broader complaint I guess.

[00:34:03] Josiah: Well what, what about this a, as the children stand on the beach at Care Perve with Trump and the dwarf film, Lucy approaches a bear assuming him to be friendly as she knows Narnie and animals to be the bear attempts to attack her as he is a dumb bear or like a not talking or kind one. And she is nearly hurt and mauled before Trumpin shoots the bear in his heart.

[00:34:27] Josiah: Susan Hesitates, uh, even though she has her bow drawn maybe, ’cause she’s also thinking the bear could be a nice nar and she remembers how. Good animals can be. Uh, it’s a show don’t tell moment that occurs only in the film demonstrating that the animals were not all the same as they once were. In the book, Lucy does talk to a bear, but it’s used as an example of a moment in which Aslan can bring back the magic that allows animals to speak.

[00:34:52] Rebekah: It’s actually there when it occurs, like in the book and gives the bear his voice basically 

[00:34:57] Tim: in the, in the film. Uh, [00:35:00] it’s, it’s an opportunity for Trump to. To win back a little bit of his own honor, uh, that he, he actually kills the bear that Susan is a little too slow, uh, to kill. So he’s been bested as a swordsman and bested as a bowman, and now he wins back a little bit of self-respect by getting the bear.

[00:35:21] Tim: And then letting them know not all the, not all the animals in Narnia talk like they once did. 

[00:35:27] Rebekah: It was actually a pretty scary scene in the film. Like I thought they did a good job making it. What a bear and a wild bear and a little girl. Yeah. 

[00:35:35] Josiah: Is 

[00:35:35] Rebekah: that scary? 

[00:35:36] Josiah: Yeah. 

[00:35:36] Rebekah: So in the book and film, Lucy first sees Azlan as he tries to lead the group through the woods, but everyone else doesn’t see him right away.

[00:35:45] Rebekah: However, whereas the book characters see Alan not that long after this, the film waits until what seems to be the very last second to reveal the lion. Um, at one point film, Peter even says, I think we’ve waited for Aslan [00:36:00] long enough. Failing to wait on divine guidance like he did in the book, um, before The enemy has been defeated as and of the book travels through Narnia, awakening trees and river spirits and freeing towns from tele marine, Marine rule, followed by many celebrations.

[00:36:14] Rebekah: And all of these are essentially just eliminated entirely from the film. Um, he is present, um, and Lucy is with him. And some of this stuff kind of happens off screen, um, but it’s downplayed quite a bit and there’s a lot more tension in like everyone. Edmund wants to believe Lucy and tries to support her.

[00:36:35] Rebekah: But Susan and Peter and the dwarf are like pretty doubtful for quite a, a long time. Comparatively. 

[00:36:41] Tim: One brief film only seen brought about by this delay in following Aslan’s guidance through the woods occurs when Peter and the others come upon Mraz and many other human workers constructing their war machines or Mira Mraz’s people.

[00:36:57] Tim: Um, 

[00:36:57] Rebekah: and I did think that was a good show. Don’t tell. [00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] Tim: Like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I liked that. Yeah. That, that your delay in following as lan. Yeah. 

[00:37:05] Rebekah: You’re like le leading yourself directly into the hands of the enemy. 

[00:37:08] Tim: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It was, um, that particular series of scenes where they didn’t follow as Lan because Lucy was the only one that saw him, um, caused me to like Susan less and less she gets on my nerves.

[00:37:25] Tim: Um, she really does. She’s such, she is such a bossy kind of person. No, we didn’t see it. We don’t wanna take that much time. No, don’t do that. It’s gonna be, it’s gonna be unsafe. Why would we listen to you, Lucy? I mean, you were right the last time and it really changed everything. But, you know, why would I listen to you now?

[00:37:44] Tim: I mean, she just, 

[00:37:45] Josiah: she was consistent from the first movie. True. They did keep her character consistent. Yeah. 

[00:37:50] Tim: Well it makes, it makes the whole ending of this series just a little bit easier to stomach. So [00:38:00] I have read all of them. Yeah. 

[00:38:01] Rebekah: I have a comment and I’m curious of your thoughts and please let me know if this sounds mean or something, but I just think it’s interesting.

[00:38:08] Rebekah: So I am on books Instagram slash book talk a lot now, and what I’m discovering is that one of the most difficult things, and people talk about this, it’s kind of a trope that people are aware of one of the most difficult things with the fact that a lot of people. Want to write powerful female main characters is that it’s very hard to do that without the character coming across as bossy or whiny in a way that male main characters do not.

[00:38:36] Rebekah: And so do you think that that is a cultural problem because we immediately assume that if a woman is in charge, that she’s bossy and annoying in a bad way and that we don’t see men that way? Or do you think that it’s harder to write women that way because of the differences in their genders? Like, because women are inherently not as quick to be [00:39:00] like the, like front running like most powerful person, you know what I mean?

[00:39:05] Rebekah: Like is it a cultural problem? I think it’s, or it inherent? 

[00:39:08] Tim: I, I think it is a prob, I think it’s a writing problem. I think writers want, I think that they need to make a woman like a man in order for her to be powerful. Hmm. That comes across as irritating because it’s outside of her actual gifting. Um, I’ve seen plenty of things read plenty of things I feel like that were written where a strong female didn’t have to be a man or manlike to be strong, I think woman and powerful.

[00:39:41] Tim: Mm-hmm. Pardon? I think of little women. Yeah. I that, you know, the, the biblical account of, of the judge, uh, Deborah, you know, she Debora maybe she makes it very clear that, you know, if, if the man who’s following her [00:40:00] wants her to go along, you know, God has said that, you know, he won’t be remembered as the victor.

[00:40:06] Tim: Mm-hmm. It will, the victory will be given into the hands of a woman and yet she’s willing to be the judge and she does a wonderful job. But she doesn’t have to be manlike to do it. In other words, she didn’t have to say, well, I’m gonna be the judge, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna sit on the horse at the front of the, the army because I need to be the leader.

[00:40:26] Tim: She was leading differently. And I think that’s the nuance that writers perhaps in 2025 struggle with. How do I make her actually lead without having to make her manlike? 

[00:40:38] Rebekah: I say other exceptions in more modern literature too, might include the way that Katniss is portrayed. I don’t find Katniss of the books to be annoying or bossy or anything, although she does have that kind of reluctant hero thing.

[00:40:50] Rebekah: So maybe that’s part of it. 

[00:40:51] Tim: Um, she’s always down on herself. I get that. Sure. I don’t love that 

[00:40:55] Rebekah: she is that. But um, the other example would be, oh my gosh, [00:41:00] what’s the main character’s name in silo? 

[00:41:01] Josiah: Yeah. Rebecca 

[00:41:02] Rebekah: Fergus. Rebecca Ferguson’s character. Uh, why can’t I? Juliet, Juliet. Juliet. Juliet, 

[00:41:07] Josiah: Jules, Romeo. Oh my gosh.

[00:41:09] Josiah: That’s actually a plot point. Yeah. Name. Oh my gosh. Her name is Juliet. Gosh. 

[00:41:12] Rebekah: But I think Juliette of Silo, like we discussed this in our episode about it, but I think that she comes off in the books more than the, the show, I think in the show. They tried to man her up a little bit somehow, but in the book, I thought the author had actually done a pretty good job of balancing the fact that she had like tenderness and femininity and she had like a love interest more than one love interest actually.

[00:41:36] Rebekah: And they dealt with all of that well. And she was incredibly strong, incredibly powerful. Did save their civilization like, or tried to at least, um, and was like a good leader without being a masculine leader. 

[00:41:51] Tim: I think a lot of times good. Strong male characters are also willing to listen to [00:42:00] those in authority over them, you know, to, to give someone else that authority.

[00:42:04] Tim: It seems like the thought is, if I’m going to have a strong female character, she can’t listen to anyone else. She has to be, she has to be the only voice or she has to be the primary voice. When I think in reality, people, people are willing to, to fall under the hierarchy that’s in place. Uh, for instance, if you happen to be a leader in your normal life and then you join a group where you are not the leader, you’re just a person there, are you going to act like the leader or are you going to be a part of the group?

[00:42:39] Tim: I think in reality, most of us are become part of that group. We fit into the hierarchy, and then when we’re called into a position where we have to lead, then we take the lead. And I think, I think that’s, that’s one of the ways that it’s a little different for men and for women. The way they’re written.

[00:42:57] Tim: Right. I 

[00:42:58] Josiah: would say, yeah, it’s a [00:43:00] writing problem. It’s a philosophy problem. I think that in 2008, especially the thought of making women powerful was just to make them into men. You’re totally right. Instead of like, what makes women powerful and what makes women human. ’cause I think that part of the Bechtel test and these feminist reframing of film literature is about how so much literature and film literature of the past has dehumanized women.

[00:43:31] Josiah: For instance, frig the woman where the main female character only serves as a plot device so that when she is killed, it motivates the, the main male character. Uh, philosophically speaking, I don’t know if I agree or disagree with this, but in academia, they might suggest that this being a trope repeated time and time again makes people in society, possibly men and women [00:44:00] both feel like if a woman dies to motivate a man, it’s like, oh yeah, I guess, you know, that happens and it, it lessens the tragedy and humanity of a woman dying of a, of a woman’s.

[00:44:15] Josiah: Uh, story. ’cause it’s 

[00:44:16] Rebekah: reductive to the point of just making her a plot device rather than like giving her her own identity in it. 

[00:44:24] Josiah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think that the solution is just to make women human. 

[00:44:27] Rebekah: Well, why don’t we get back onto the changes? Thank you guys for engaging with me on that. I was just curious what you thought.

[00:44:33] Rebekah: So, 

[00:44:34] Donna: um, Eddie Izard, I thought, found it interesting who voiced cheep said he, he used, he used for his, um, his inspiration of the part like a swashbuckling, um, pirate. And I thought that was interesting. ’cause I, I thought he did a great job. It’s very much a pussy boots 

[00:44:53] Rebekah: very, that much, that vibe. Yeah. 

[00:44:54] Donna: Yeah.

[00:44:55] Donna: Let’s go back to Lucy. In the film, Maraz finds [00:45:00] Susan’s horn, which the one that Caspian blew to summon help before it is eventually returned to Caspian. This doesn’t happen in the book. However, when Caspian attempts to return the horn to Susan at the end of the book, she refuses as she’s no longer in need of it.

[00:45:15] Donna: You’ve given me the two sad parts about Susan not back. It’s very sad. 

[00:45:19] Rebekah: Yes. This interaction in the book was one of Susan’s and Caspian’s Yes. Formal and polite interactions that have nothing to do with romance. 

[00:45:28] Donna: Yes, for sure. Hmm. 

[00:45:29] Josiah: And have nothing to do with the book. Also, I don’t know if we ever mention that Raz, I only think of Jason Mraz the musician.

[00:45:38] Josiah: Oh my, I don’t even resonate as, 

[00:45:40] Rebekah: as is that Yeah, that’s a famous musician, right. Is probably the better way to say that. To avoid Confucian. Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:47] Josiah: In both the book and movie, A few desperate Nars attempt black sorcery to resurrect the white witch. Irony. Yeah, this was, this was probably the [00:46:00] coolest scene in the book.

[00:46:01] Josiah: Maybe the movie, I don’t know how you guys feel, but the, uh, the way it played on, on screen, it was much closer to a disaster than the books plot in which the conspirators are stopped nearly as soon as they begin. Caspian Peter and Edmond kill Nick Brick, the hag and the werewolf in the film, the white witch is nearly summoned through an icy wall as she makes promises to fulfill the desires of those who free her.

[00:46:29] Josiah: Both Prince Caspian and seemingly Peter are mesmerized by her. However, briefly but before Caspian can offer her his blood and then Peter briefly, Edmond intervenes by stabbing into the Mirage from behind, banishing her once more, and I feel completing her arc, completing Edmond’s arc even further.

[00:46:56] Josiah: Redeeming him from his sins of the first [00:47:00] story 

[00:47:00] Tim: in the book. However, this all happens as Peter Edmond and, uh, Trumpian have entered into this how, where the, where the stone table, the infamous snow stone table from the first, first book in film, um, is, has been kept as a memorial. So as Peter and Edmund and Trump can arrive, they hear this debate, well, if Aslan’s not going to send someone, then there are powers, you know, who kept as land at bay for I think it’s a hundred years.

[00:47:38] Tim: Um, and so all of it takes place. So by the time Peter and Edmund and Trump can come in, it’s almo, it’s pretty much over. Caspian is part of the group that they’re talk that is being talked to about the white witch coming and the hag comes in, uh, and the werewolf, um. But [00:48:00] Peter and Edmund and even Truken are not really part of that until they rush in and in the darkness the people are killed.

[00:48:10] Tim: The hag is killed and the werewolf is killed, and, uh, Nicker brick is killed. It’s. A lot more dramatic in the film, but it is very different. Very different. 

[00:48:19] Rebekah: I’m on the fence about how I feel about this. So on the one hand, I think it is a beautiful moment for Edmund, the way it’s done in the film. I, I think that having her show up visibly is actually not a bad thing.

[00:48:34] Rebekah: This was one change from the book to the film that I would say was more interesting than the way it was in the book, for sure, in terms of what we see. But Cassian and Peter both being tempted by her just. It doesn’t, I guess it fits in with this weird thing they do with Peter that I don’t like in the film quite a bit.

[00:48:53] Rebekah: So I’m, I am of the mind that I like the portrayal of the white witch and that these three did try to bring her [00:49:00] back and I like that they got further than in the book. Maybe. Like, I think it, it’s compelling. I wish what had happened was like that Edmond was a little ahead and by the time that Peter and Caspian come in and see what’s happening, Edmond is the one preventing them because at one point I think it’s Nicka brick, I don’t remember which one’s holding him for sure, but one of them is like holding Cassian and cuts his hand to give the blood.

[00:49:21] Rebekah: I kind of wish that like by the time Peter comes in that like Edmund gets rid of the white witch and then Caspian’s able to turn on the hag. I guess that’s then holding him rather than somehow adding in this weird like temptation scene. Like it just doesn’t fit with who I think their characters are supposed to be.

[00:49:40] Rebekah: So I like some of it. Some of it bugs me. Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:43] Josiah: Yeah, I liked some of it. A little bit of it bugs me first of all in the book is this scene not when the IES first meet Caspian. 

[00:49:52] Tim: It is the very beginning. They’ve not met Caspian until, until this is done. 

[00:49:56] Josiah: First of all, I thought that was interesting. I was shocked that that was [00:50:00] how they, that that was when they met.

[00:50:01] Josiah: And how little book there was left. Secondly, so, so that speaks to problems I have with the book, but in the movie, doesn’t Lucy help fight in that scene? Yeah. Doesn’t she like try to pull the werewolf? Is that, am I thinking of the right in the film? Doesn’t Lucy like pull the werewolf off of. I’m not sure actually think, but I don’t know.

[00:50:31] Josiah: I think Lucy and Trump can, are tag teaming badly. The where I, I bet it’s on YouTube. 

[00:50:39] Tim: Probably the werewolf. One of the, one of the things about this scene in the film that I don’t care for is the length of time it takes for Peter to resist the temptation. Oh, yeah. Uh, that’s the one that is the most out of character.

[00:50:55] Tim: Mm-hmm. Um, Cassian, I can see, you know, he has, he’s never seen [00:51:00] Aslan. He was told that the horn would bring help. The help hasn’t come. Maybe this other help doesn’t sound quite right, but maybe I could see that. And I liked the fact that they brought the white witch back. And I, I like the fact that Edmund is the one that finally defeats her.

[00:51:16] Tim: I like some of what they did, but I, I feel like Peter becomes, Peter becomes far less in this film than, than he should have been. 

[00:51:27] Josiah: Mm-hmm. Far less noble. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I think that the film almost, okay, so I think that Peter is a more complicated and interesting character. Mm-hmm. But it’s difficult when he’s kind of designed in the book to be like the noble character.

[00:51:47] Josiah: Right. 

[00:51:47] Donna: He remains noble. He’s noble, king Peter. 

[00:51:50] Josiah: Yeah. He’s designed to be, look at how noble humanity can be and how great it is when a noble person comes back. Uh, I think that [00:52:00] even if he’s like a more interesting character, quote unquote, the premise of the entire story is that the ho that Susan’s horn.

[00:52:09] Josiah: Called them back to Narnia and that Aslan had some plan for the humans, the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve, to be brought back into the world to make things right. To be help. 

[00:52:22] Tim: Yes. 

[00:52:22] Josiah: Yeah. And is Peter really a help? 

[00:52:25] Tim: Mm, yeah. 

[00:52:26] Josiah: That’s a, that would be a question 

[00:52:28] Tim: in this betrayal. Yeah. You’re 

[00:52:29] Josiah: certainly helpful.

[00:52:31] Donna: But if you are not, if you are not, maybe that’s 

[00:52:34] Josiah: why they’re banished Peter and Susan from ever coming back, because, sorry, I called you guys back. You didn’t, yeah. I trusted you and you did not deserve it. So too 

[00:52:43] Donna: bad. So, so I wonder too, if you’re, if you’re looking to create a film, a theatrical representation of this, but you’re not really focused, you’re not taking the faith based out of it completely, but you’re not focused on the full message that Lewis was trying to get [00:53:00] across.

[00:53:00] Donna: I think that has something to do with it too. Then you can mess with their characters a little bit, but in the world, you know, God makes us all different and unique people. None of us are exactly the same as someone else. And so these, the four of them represent, I think the character, like a full character of, of godliness.

[00:53:24] Donna: I think even in Susan being questioning we have to question things, there are things we’re gonna question in the lot in our, in the world. That’s not always bad, but I think in the making a film of it, I think some of the things they did took away from some of that message. I still think they preserved the goodness of the message, but 

[00:53:47] Josiah: so.

[00:53:48] Josiah: This is my take. And in the film I wanted to follow up that Lucy and Trump can fight nicka brick. Interesting. In the white witch scene. 

[00:53:58] Donna: Mm. So she’s a part of it, [00:54:00] but she’s not, someone’s with her, but she is part of the battle. She 

[00:54:03] Josiah: truken are tag teaming. The other dwarf, the evil dwarf. 

[00:54:05] Rebekah: All right. So speaking of battles, there are several battle scenes added or greatly expanded in the film that either don’t happen or in the book only happen off page.

[00:54:15] Rebekah: So the first of these is a chase scene as Mraz’s soldiers pursue Caspian in the woods. That does not happen in the book. He’s not, his leaving is not caught until after I believe his horse goes back and, you know, hells on him. It’s not tells on him ’cause the horse doesn’t talk. Correct. But, um, there’s also a night.

[00:54:32] Rebekah: Yeah. Not yet. Horses can’t talk. Not that horse talk. 

[00:54:34] Tim: Not, not that horse. And then there 

[00:54:37] Rebekah: is a night raid on Mora’s Castle in the book. The Narens had this idea but abandoned it because it was too dangerous. And then this is where in the movie they end up doing that whole scene with the white witch, which in the book takes place, um, elsewhere at Aslan’s.

[00:54:51] Rebekah: How? Um, and then the final, 

[00:54:53] Josiah: because they failed the night raid. And I guess Cassian and Peter felt like, well, my night raid idea didn’t [00:55:00] work. So I feel like that was, I want the white witch Peter. And then the final, 

[00:55:03] Rebekah: the final battle of the film is also a lot lengthier than it was shown in the book. I will also say, I don’t think maybe you could see it from a movie making standpoint as the reason Peter and Susan were pulled in.

[00:55:15] Rebekah: Was not because they needed to help as much as, uh, they needed the help. Like it helped them to go back to Narnia and resolve some of the things on their own mind. I’m just guessing. 

[00:55:26] Josiah: Yes, yes, yes. It’s, no, you’re right that that’s what it is. But like Aslan seems a little haphazard to be being like, I need to teach these four kids a lesson.

[00:55:40] Josiah: Let me sacrifice thousands of lives of nar and tell Marines, gosh, teach line. He like lesson at Alan. Is it Susan that says 

[00:55:48] Rebekah: it and says like, would all those people have died if we’d followed you or something, Lucy? And then he’s like, well, we’ll never know Lucy. And 

[00:55:56] Donna: I’m like, oh 

[00:55:57] Rebekah: golly. 

[00:55:59] Tim: Well, the, [00:56:00] the line, I like that one.

[00:56:01] Tim: But the line is a book line. We’ll, we will, we can never know what would have happened. Only what. Has happened. Um, so, and he says that a few different times, uh, throughout, throughout the books, uh, some of the more noticeable changes to the last battle scene have to do with the death of Meez at the hand of one of his own lord’s, Lord supe Ian.

[00:56:26] Tim: Although it sounded like, Lord suspicion every time the guy read it, that I was listening to the, the version I’m listening to, uh, there are different readers for each book in the, it’s the whole set of the Chronicles, but different people read, uh, different people read it. Um, he’s not named in the novel, but, well, I think I heard kept hearing his name.

[00:56:49] Tim: Mm-hmm. But it sounded like suspicion to me. Every time, uh, there’s a huge and extended battlefield sequence that we don’t need book like about in book, like right after he kills Neas sequence, the Tell Marine, all of a sudden it 

[00:56:58] Rebekah: turns into this big thing, which was not [00:57:00] right. Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:01] Tim: Right. Treason. Treason, they, you know, they didn’t follow through with what they said they were gonna do.

[00:57:05] Tim: One fighter against One fighter, and. You know, uh, the Tell Marine Army and the nar Ians clash around Aslan’s. How until Lucy and a Aslan get there, um, the lion intervenes by awakening the huge living trees of the forest, then summoning a river God who destroys the enemy and floods the army. The book, the book does describe the bridge, a baruna being destroyed, but it was already completed.

[00:57:33] Tim: It wasn’t right so that they could fight this battle. That’s the only, they didn’t, the tell Marines hated the forest and hated the water they wanted to stay away from. Okay, so most things. Yeah. Well, they wanted, well, that’s why they, they cut down all the trees and that’s why they built bridges over places that were shallow enough to, just, to wade across the 

[00:57:55] Rebekah: water, was because Aslan has always been stated to come from the sea, and they were [00:58:00] afraid of him.

[00:58:00] Rebekah: And the woods were, because they were afraid of like the magical creatures and the magical trees and all that stuff, and the talking 

[00:58:05] Tim: trees. Yes. They, they were afraid of all of those things. And so I felt like that was. It was visually cool. It was strange at points. I don’t know. It just, I liked the way it was in the book, you know, the, the bridge was already built, you know?

[00:58:23] Tim: Yeah. This, this is also, uh, if this is the place where I wanna say it, this is also where I looked at your mom when we were watching it, and I said, okay, here’s a big plot problem. Mm-hmm. And we both, we both agreed that when they step out of the forest to the river, they’ve just exited the battle on the plains.

[00:58:46] Tim: But behind the forest that they step out of is a mountain range. They’ve left. The planes through the trees to the river, but we see that they are, [00:59:00] that the mountains are right behind the tree. So it was, I think it was bad filmography. I think they, they did a bad job there. 

[00:59:05] Donna: It’s Vold War and Harry flying at the end of the seventh movie that isn’t in the book and doesn’t need to be in the book, doesn’t really need to be in the movie, but it lengthens it out some, and it gives you a little bit of fighting if somebody just has to see that to be happy.

[00:59:18] Josiah: Well, in the book, they, they are attacked by the forest, aren’t they? Like Fang Gordon? Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Yeah. It is very Fang Gorn who wrote it first, 

[00:59:25] Tim: uh, cast. They were, or our towers first, they were friends who talked about those things together. So 

[00:59:31] Donna: I’ll tell you, I don’t remember. 

[00:59:33] Tim: Check it out. But they were part of that, the book club, and they were talk, they would to be a 

[00:59:36] Donna: fly 

[00:59:37] Tim: on that wall.

[00:59:38] Tim: They would bounce those ideas around each other. Oh, towers was after it. He’s stole 

[00:59:44] Josiah: this story couple years apart. Yeah. I wonder if two tour towers was written already. I don’t know. That’s crazy. I th ’cause I think both of, both of the second novels in their series and with the bad [01:00:00] armies being killed by a 

[01:00:01] Tim: forest, can you, can you see that though?

[01:00:05] Tim: They’ve had this huge discussion and in this hours long weeks and weeks of discussion, they’ve thrown out these ideas and they both think, well, wow, that would really work. In the book I’m working on. So let me put that in there. And then they have somebody else edit it and read it and stuff like that.

[01:00:25] Tim: It’s like, oh, that we both use that idea. 

[01:00:30] Josiah: I do think two towers works better because tree beard and the tree are characters, uh eh, whatever 

[01:00:39] Tim: in the film. The destruction of the underground part of the how. Mm-hmm. That was to me, that was a what? The Deus six. Mackinac X, Macina X Macina, Deus, X Mac, maca, it’s all a Deus six macina.

[01:00:55] Josiah: With as lamb, it was just given. 

[01:00:57] Tim: Well, I mean, you’ve not seen this [01:01:00] underground part. 

[01:01:01] Josiah: Yes, 

[01:01:02] Tim: completely. As is 

[01:01:03] Josiah: established as I’m gonna save the day at the end. 

[01:01:06] Tim: Right. But this underground part is like, oh, where are they writing to? Oh wait, where is that? We haven’t seen all of that. Mm-hmm. And it’s like the catacombs of the Roman era for Christians.

[01:01:21] Tim: I’m sure that’s kind of the thought process, but it wasn’t in the book. And you don’t see it in the film until suddenly they’re writing through it and breaking down the, uh, the things, the columns that hold it up. Mm-hmm. So it seems like something they just invented. So there would be some way for a small army to.

[01:01:41] Tim: Attack a larger army. 

[01:01:44] Josiah: Ooh. Well, you know, after all the battles, very fun. Maybe needless, the film closes on a scene where Aslan’s talking to everyone and it’s kind of like, Hey, Caspian’s King, at the same time [01:02:00] as all the Talmar Marines can leave. That’s pretty similar to the book. But, uh, in the film, Peter offers his sword to Caspian resolving their ongoing conflict, passing on the torch.

[01:02:12] Josiah: Uh, this doesn’t exactly happen in the book, although he does Knight the Boy King in both works, 

[01:02:17] Rebekah: which I thought true. I, um, I thought it was interesting as I was listening to the very closing scenes that you kind of see Peter knighting him from afar as like other stuff is being resolved. You see the kings and queens kind of doing their thing.

[01:02:31] Rebekah: Mm. But it wasn’t really a main focus of what was happening. They were more talking about the, what was happening with the rest of the people. So I thought that was kind of interesting. Just it’s a slight change, but, 

[01:02:40] Josiah: and of course, the very end of the film, how have we not talked about the most important change to the movie?

[01:02:46] Josiah: The recurring bit with Edmund’s flashlight? Oh, that was so cute. Or torch, of course, as they say in the United Kingdom. Uh, yes. He, I believe, lost it [01:03:00] during the night raid. I don’t think he got it back then. And when they are transported back to the real world, was the night heartbreaking? Was the night raid only in the film?

[01:03:08] Josiah: Uh, yeah. I don’t, I think mentioned it was of the book that in the book, thought about it and decided idea realized. Yeah. Um, 

[01:03:16] Donna: so, 

[01:03:17] Josiah: um, so I don’t think he got his torch back in. The very last line of the film is, I lost, I forgot my torch in non, my new torch. My new torch. And it was like, ha ha ha ha. And then a song plays over the credits and it is, uh, it’s kind of corny, but it’s kind of much needed.

[01:03:35] Josiah: I feel like the very end, they’re back in the real world. And like we understand more than we did at the end of the first film. Yes. Oh my gosh. To have gone through all that experience, not being able to talk to anyone about it, and to just have to pretend like it didn’t happen, basically. And go back to their child lives.

[01:03:54] Josiah: Yeah. Going off to, I assume boarding school is on the other side of the train. They could 

[01:03:58] Tim: speak, they could [01:04:00] speak to the professor though, remember that is part of the previous book. They were able to talk to him. 

[01:04:04] Donna: But if you think about it, in a real world, if this was real world, I mean, think of the world we live in.

[01:04:09] Donna: Leaders children are heavily guarded. They can’t do anything alone. They’re, you know, oftentimes they go to private schools. They might not have gone to if their parents were just, you know, business leaders, but world leaders, nation leaders, that kind of thing. And if you think about this, you know, they were in Narnia, Kings, Queens for decades, and then come out and they’re just school students and who cares, you know?

[01:04:36] Donna: And so I, I mean the, the whole. That whole, um, opposing lives certainly lies. The people who 

[01:04:41] Josiah: beat up Peter didn’t care. 

[01:04:43] Donna: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, as we move into setting changes, this is like, we’ve read several, we’ve covered several pieces over the last few months where there weren’t a lot of setting changes, and I think that’s interesting ’cause we’ve had some, some of the things we’ve covered, the [01:05:00] setting changes have been insane.

[01:05:01] Donna: But this, this one, again, there’s, there’s not too many, but, we’ll, 

[01:05:05] Josiah: we’ll, 

[01:05:05] Donna: let’s go through them. Well, 

[01:05:06] Josiah: you know, the tine culture and, and their, you know, setting in their backstory is a lot more specific in the film. It’s not described in great detail in the book, but the movie specifically models them after 15th, 16th century Spanish conquistadors, costuming, accents, architecture.

[01:05:27] Josiah: Uh, this is not suggested in the original text at all, but Director Adamson wanted to give the enemy a feeling of, uh, that they’re more oppressive and foreign mm-hmm. Than the very British ies. I also got the impression, I, I wasn’t able to confirm it too much, but it seemed like it was a pretty last minute, uh, change to the pre-production.

[01:05:48] Josiah: That, that they were going to be Spanish con keys to doors that washed ashore and, and got transported into the world of Narnia. 

[01:05:55] Tim: In the book, they, they are from an island basically, and they, [01:06:00] their ancestors walked into a cave and mm-hmm. Found the door to, to Narnia and came through and. Started conquering it.

[01:06:07] Donna: A little, a little piece of trivia that I, I wasn’t gonna include, but it fits very nicely here. Adamson wanted to make sure that the narens looked like wilder and a little dirtier and rougher to show, you know, because they’d been in hiding. They’re, they, they’re living in fear of the, of the tell Marines and things like that.

[01:06:27] Donna: And I felt like he achieved that. I mean, I do, I do agree. ’cause when they first came out, I wa I was watching them thinking, not knowing this, not thinking about this, but they came out and I was kinda like, oh, they, they don’t look as free. And yeah, I was thinking of them back in the wood and Narnia after Aslan had come back and the winter had gone away.

[01:06:45] Donna: Right. And so I, I did notice that. And, and I’m not super observant about a lot of that, but yeah, they, there were several things like that, that they needed to. Impress on us visually. Yeah. Show and not tell. Well, 

[01:06:57] Tim: the one was that the atmosphere of Narnia in [01:07:00] various set pieces was darker and heavier in the film.

[01:07:03] Tim: Mm-hmm. Than we get in the book. Uh, this was a di directorial choice and he made it because, uh, 1300 years have passed. And Narnia has, he says, quote, Narnia has been oppressed by Tell Marines end quote, which led Adams Adamson to envision a quote, dirtier, grittier, darker end quote world. This is shown in muted color palettes, desolate conditions in various locations throughout the film.

[01:07:32] Tim: In the book, we do learn that care perve has been ruined and that the golden age of Narnia has been over for some time. But the mood of the novel is pretty bright. Once Aslan is known to be again on the move, I 

[01:07:44] Rebekah: thought this came across. Mm-hmm. The book did not feel as dark as the film. 

[01:07:48] Josiah: I liked the visual changes.

[01:07:50] Josiah: I remember as a child thinking, oh, this is like, I’m returning to the same characters in world, but it’s different. It’s not just that we’re rehashing it, which I appreciated. 

[01:07:59] Rebekah: I [01:08:00] do like that it did not feel in any way, like the same thing over and over. Even in something like Harry Potter, which I love. It’s really hard when you kind of have this series where it’s like every single book is the same basic.

[01:08:11] Rebekah: We go to school, Voldemort shows up, we defeat Voldemort, and it’s like every book in Narnia feels like a completely separate story. That’s connected. Mm-hmm. But they don’t use the same template or outline, which I just, I think is really good. And the same thing, as much as I didn’t personally love the actual reading, it comes through in Lord of the Rings as well, where it’s like, everything feels very, like, unique.

[01:08:37] Rebekah: Uh, you’re not just repeating something. Another setting changes that some locations were omitted in the film from the book due to Aslan’s revival of the Ian countryside being mostly absent. So there were some schools in a Baruna village that they, I believe chased some Marines out of. And then there’s several unnamed Ian towns, um, that we don’t see because we don’t get a lot of that, that he did separately.

[01:08:59] Tim: [01:09:00] And some of, and some of that takes place in the book. It takes place after mm-hmm. EZ is defeated and the tail Marines are defeated, but before, uh, Aslan sends them back to their country, to their origin country mm-hmm. As well as the, the four children, they, they chopped all of that out. So I, I can see why they wanted to do that.

[01:09:20] Tim: Sure. 

[01:09:21] Donna: As len’s how the underground hall that’s built over the stone table is described in the book as a large earthy mound with a cavern. Inside the film, however, shows it as a much more imposing subterranean fortresslike space, and it’s, it’s grand with carved walls. It’s lit by torches and a little bit of of trivia here, it’s a little sweet memory, um, as the camera lingers on the, the paintings on the walls as they go through.

[01:09:48] Donna: The last one is Mr. Tum in the Lamppost, and there’s a lovely little snippet of the narnie and lullaby that Tums played for Lucy in the line, the witch and the wardrobe. I [01:10:00] thought that was pretty cool when they can weave music back in like that and, um, that music makes a big, is a big deal for me. So I really thought that was.

[01:10:09] Donna: Nice. That was pretty cool. 

[01:10:10] Josiah: Well, finally, the nar don’t attack Mraz’s Castle in the book. So in the film, when they do attack, we get to see much more of the interior of the castle than is described in the text. Like the uh, throne room. There’s balconies, there’s regal halls, yeah’s parapets and Ball warks.

[01:10:30] Josiah: Oh, just thinking of all the castle terms I know from writing fantasy. It’s so 

[01:10:34] Tim: weird though. I think, I think the film could have done without this battle. This is, this is the one that just seems superfluous. It seemed action added for the sake of having 

[01:10:45] Rebekah: action. It didn’t understand the point. 

[01:10:47] Josiah: Well, it’s tough because I think narratively, it’s to show Peter and Well, especially Peter, not waiting for Aslan and that’s [01:11:00] bad.

[01:11:00] Donna: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:01] Josiah: Yeah. But like at the end of the day, he’s not really that punished for his mistake. Like maybe he learns from it. 

[01:11:08] Donna: Yeah. 

[01:11:08] Josiah: But a lot of people suffer for it though. Isn’t it just Peter and Edmond who escape the night raid. Well, no, lots of Does everyone else die? A lot of people 

[01:11:16] Tim: do escape, but a lot of people are left behind when the, when the gate falls.

[01:11:22] Josiah: Yeah. So a lot of 

[01:11:23] Tim: people, 

[01:11:24] Josiah: their lives or become pri tortured prisoners, well, they lose their lives ’cause of his mistake 

[01:11:29] Tim: because they, they fly back over. Edmund is on the, the eagle or whatever the creature is. Griffin Edmund flies back over and we, we get the scene of the mound of dead creatures, nar creatures.

[01:11:44] Donna: So as we move into some of the numbers, uh, it’s kind of interesting the way this all played out with the, the timing of the movie and, and things like that. So we’ll start with book release. It was, uh, released on October 15th, 1951. It was originally [01:12:00] titled Prince Caspian, the Return to Narnia. Uh, the movie release, uh, released initially with a premier on May 7th, 2008 at the Zig Feld Theater in New York City.

[01:12:11] Donna: Then on May 16th in the US and on June 26th in the UK and worldwide. Um, the book rating on good reads is 3.95, uh, 3.98 out of five, and that’s 471,000 ratings. So it’s not just a few people gave it whatever. Uh, that’s probably fair. Maybe I might say. We will see, uh, rotten Tomatoes rating. Uh, critics rating was 66% still fresh, but it’s not.

[01:12:43] Donna: Seems low. Yeah, it’s low, not up there. With the first one, uh, the IMDB rating was 6.5 out of 10. The flicker audience score 73%, so they kept it up in the seventies, which is cool. Um, this film cost $255 [01:13:00] million to produce. It was the highest production budget movie in 2008. Prince Caspian is the only Narnia film to be released in the summer, which could have attributed to lower ratings because a couple of other blockbusters came out.

[01:13:15] Rebekah: Shoot. And that was like kind of the first in the massive like Marvel rush. Yeah. 

[01:13:22] Donna: Yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was a good film. It, it was good. It was, yeah. And cost a hundred 

[01:13:26] Josiah: million dollars less than Prince Kaki. Uh, 

[01:13:29] Donna: yeah, please. Seriously, A $40 million budget for Ironman versus 2 25 for Caspian. That’s crazy. And then Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, who was just a little bit, uh, had a little bit higher production than Ironman at 185 million.

[01:13:46] Donna: Still almost like, uh, what is that? 40 million less than Caspian. Um, it came out on May 20th. 2008. So on both sides. And so the thought was it could have [01:14:00] crowded the playing field and kind of gave too many choices for viewers. Another thought about this is the initial release was set for December 14th, 2007.

[01:14:10] Donna: They moved it to May 16th because Disney didn’t wanna compete with the water horse, which I had forgotten was a movie actually. Uh, which came out at Christmas time. One, two th in 2007. Sadly, hindsight being 2020, this was a mistake ’cause the water horse ended up with a box office of about $104 million.

[01:14:31] Tim: So it was a huge block. So Caspian 

[01:14:33] Donna: could have potentially killed where they moved it to the spring around two other blockbusters that ended up kind of 

[01:14:42] Tim: overshadowing it. It still made 

[01:14:43] Donna: money. Okay. It still made money, but not 

[01:14:45] Rebekah: like line. The witch in the wardrobe, the water horse has 74% on Rotten Tomatoes.

[01:14:51] Rebekah: Yeah. So the critics rating for it was actually higher than what Caspian ended up getting, which is going, but the audience wasn’t, it was lower. The audience just wasn’t as crazy. It 62% [01:15:00] versus the, what was it here? 73? Yeah. 

[01:15:02] Donna: Yeah. So the opening weekend, Caspian pulled in 55 million. The USA Canada gross was 141 million.

[01:15:10] Donna: International gross, two 78 million, making a total worldwide of $419 million. It pulled in. So it doubled, almost doubled. Its production. Yeah, not 

[01:15:21] Josiah: quite. 

[01:15:21] Tim: But 

[01:15:22] Josiah: yeah, I think generally you want to double it. So I didn’t quite make it to four 50 million. Yeah. So it was probably a slight disappointment, but not a bomb.

[01:15:30] Rebekah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:15:30] Josiah: I will say some of the reasons that the budget was increased, including unexpectedly, was the location shooting. Yeah. So I think the first movie was all in New Zealand and the second movie was like mm-hmm. New Zealand plus three other middle European countries. Yeah. It was like a lot more countries travel logistics.

[01:15:52] Donna: They said they wanted the, there was more availability of larger sets in, in these places. Mm-hmm. And so that’s why they went out. [01:16:00] 

[01:16:00] Josiah: Yeah. And there’s more, there’s more battles. Um, so, and those just cost more money to, to film the action. Sure. Uh, there and the people there was more CGI the Oh yeah. Repa cheap and Aslan both and all of the other were mice time sink kinda of money.

[01:16:16] Josiah: What was the Yeah, all the other mice. What was 

[01:16:17] Rebekah: the, the black and white, not a skunk. What was he? Ves The badger hunter. The badger. That’s what he was, yeah. Trouble 

[01:16:24] Tim: hunter the badger. 

[01:16:26] Donna: They had to have, they had to do something to replace the beavers, I think, and so they pulled a, a badger in. Mm-hmm. That was kind of, I was so sad in the book when the book said, yeah, 

[01:16:35] Josiah: yes.

[01:16:35] Josiah: Well there are no more beavers in Narnia. Well, 

[01:16:39] Donna: I was hoping he’d somehow resurrect Tums too, but I guess that would be too much to 

[01:16:43] Josiah: ask 

[01:16:44] Donna: for. 

[01:16:44] Josiah: Oh, but final, I’ll just say that they did, it seemed, what I’m reading is that they made the INE Spanish at the last minute and they had spent a long time the, the art department and stuff like that.

[01:16:57] Josiah: They’d spent a long time creating [01:17:00] non-Spanish armor and pro Interesting, 

[01:17:02] Donna: lovely 

[01:17:03] Josiah: bomb 

[01:17:03] Rebekah: or redesign money. All right. So a couple of fun little trivia points for you in a letter to an American reader, Louis wrote to her that Prince Caspian was quote, the restoration of the true religion after a corruption.

[01:17:20] Rebekah: And I will say of the things that I wasn’t a big fan of in going into the film from book and the things that I’m most probably concerned about with the new adaptation coming in the next couple of years, I’m very concerned that when you try to lose the, um, allegorical, you know, Christa centric idea, like Aslan as the Jesus figure Yeah.

[01:17:40] Rebekah: And stuff like that. I mean, Louis’ herpes in this was to be allegorical like it’s supposed to be based on that. Mm-hmm. So if you’re coming from a non-Christian perspective, I’m not sure that you can retell this story in a way that’s going to connect with an intended audience. For the story. I think people that don’t want a Christian telling of [01:18:00] anything by, you know, by CS Lewis, they’re already probably not the people that are going to watch the Chronicles of Narnia.

[01:18:06] Rebekah: And then if you make it something that those people would be more happy to see, they’re not gonna watch it. Then you’re gonna lose the original audience who grew up with it or loves to share with their children. I mean, this is a very enduring tale. So anyway, just a little concern there. But 

[01:18:21] Donna: so I have one for the history buffs of our group.

[01:18:24] Donna: Well, and of our listeners too. But the two, two in our group, the self-admitted history buffs of Dad and Josiah, not so much me and Rebecca, even though Rebecca has pulled out some great answers. In recent podcast, she’s pulled out some great answers. She types fast and 

[01:18:40] Tim: Google is great. Google is not great.

[01:18:42] Tim: We hate Google. 

[01:18:42] Donna: Um, although there are no official parallels drawn between the two, the Talmar Marine Conquest of Narnia has many similarities to the 11th century invasion and occupation of England by a force made up of Norman, which I [01:19:00] read it the first time. I was like, who’s Norman? But it’s a not, but it’s a bunch of people.

[01:19:04] Donna: Norman McDonald, it’s a bunch of people, the French and the Flemish and Breton soldiers led by the Duke of Normand Normandy. So for our resident history buffs, well, can I just be 

[01:19:14] Josiah: clear, is this the Norman Conquest? Yes. Okay. That’s a very funny way to talk about the Norman Conquest. Yeah. Well, 

[01:19:21] Donna: so for, for Dad and Josiah and Rebecca, if you know, okay, what was Na, what name was later given to the Duke of Norman?

[01:19:29] Donna: Charles Peter. Peter Dgl. That 

[01:19:31] Josiah: is a great guess. It’s 

[01:19:32] Donna: a great Ga, a great guest. Peter Dgl was a great 

[01:19:34] Josiah: guess. Think of his, think of his, no, what name, what Charles think of his, his title of his son. King Charles’s son. Prince of Wales. I don’t know. I, I really don’t know. It’s William The Conqueror. William.

[01:19:44] Josiah: William. William The Conquer. William. Gotcha. 

[01:19:45] Donna: Yeah. 11th century honey. 11th century, William, whatever. So, okay. So I just, the Battle of Hastings 

[01:19:52] Josiah: 10 66. 

[01:19:54] Donna: Oh my goodness. So what do we wanna know about script writing? Okay, 

[01:19:57] Tim: so here you might be interested in this [01:20:00] script writing for Prince Caspian was in process before the release of the lion, the witch in the wardrobe.

[01:20:07] Tim: Mm-hmm. Director Adamson wanted shooting to begin as quickly as possible because only a year is to have passed between the first and second stories of the book. Do we feel that this was effective? Did the four leads appear a year older? 

[01:20:22] Rebekah: I would say I 

[01:20:24] Tim: did it work. Lu, 

[01:20:25] Rebekah: Lucy and Edmond were on the edge. Both of them, I would’ve said between two and three years had passed.

[01:20:31] Rebekah: Like, especially Lucy. Significant. Yeah. Like you can go through growth, growth spurts. So it wasn’t distracting. I think it was fine for the older kids, but I think it was, I think it worked, I guess. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was fine. 

[01:20:41] Donna: Yeah. I did. I would say the biggest difference in Lucy is her face lost. What people love to say is baby fat.

[01:20:50] Donna: So she wasn’t fat in the first movie, but she lost this fullness. It’s roundness that you have when you, when you’re facing elong dates, when when you move into, um, well the [01:21:00] first word that came to my head was Protestantism. Adolescent Protestantism. 

[01:21:05] Josiah: You start to be more physically fit 

[01:21:07] Donna: into adolescent lessons.

[01:21:09] Donna: Lessons. Sorry. Okay. We should go on. Well, you know 

[01:21:12] Josiah: what I think is the most major change about Lucy Yeah. Is the, at the time of filming. Prince Casby and her actress was 12 years old. She was losing baby teeth. 

[01:21:23] Donna: I gotta read about it, at the age 

[01:21:24] Josiah: of 12. Mm-hmm. Causing her to have to wear fake teeth to fill in the gaps.

[01:21:31] Donna: I think it was like two teeth she lost, but they were lost in a place where they had to give her fake teeth. I’m like, what says her teeth 10 to 12? Is that range such apart that 

[01:21:40] Rebekah: you lose your final molars and canines. Wow. 

[01:21:43] Josiah: And I had a crush on Lucy when I was a kid. Mm-hmm. When these uh, films came out and my mother always made fun of Lucy and her teeth.

[01:21:52] Josiah: She’s like really hurt. Kind of like arrested development, hurt. 

[01:21:55] Rebekah: She has horrible teeth. Yeah. I teeth are one of the first thing I try to notice about somebody. Yeah. Or I, [01:22:00] well, I wish I didn’t try to notice about someone, but, uh, Peter Dinkle, who has decent teeth, I would say, uh, gets the award for being faithful to the craft.

[01:22:08] Rebekah: On his first day of filming, Dinklage not only stood up in the makeup chair for three hours for his prosthetics, but he was bitten several times by sand flies and somehow fell into a river, but not as part of his character’s story. And, uh, one of the films producers said they were very fortunate that he returned after those events.

[01:22:29] Josiah: Yeah. And then he said, no, you’re gonna have me play a mythical dwarf again in Snow White. Nevermind. Yep. No more dwarfs in Snow White. No more dwarfs. Yeah. 

[01:22:39] Donna: Um, so here’s another opinion question for you. Um, did Ben Barnes, who, who portrayed Casian, did his accent sound familiar? Can you guess who, what character in another film years ago, what character, uh, did he pattern his speech after?

[01:22:57] Donna: Hold on. Wait. I wanna guess. I wanna guess. I wanna guess she’s, [01:23:00] 

[01:23:00] Tim: but I had no idea that it was an accent. I just assumed he was like a Czech actor or something like that. 

[01:23:08] Donna: Did I get it? You, that’s what I was gonna guess. You might 

[01:23:11] Rebekah: have gotten it. Yes. I, it, it was, I held up my book. I just bought a new, uh, collector’s edition, uh, illustrated the Princess Bride.

[01:23:17] Rebekah: Um, at one point I looked at Josh or Mariah, whoever I was watching it with at the time, and I was like, wait a minute. My father is Igo Montoya, prepared to 

[01:23:26] Donna: die. You 

[01:23:27] Rebekah: killed my father. 

[01:23:27] Donna: I was like, 

[01:23:29] Josiah: no, my name is, my name 

[01:23:31] Donna: is an Nigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare Die. And I was 

[01:23:35] Josiah: whatever I like. I was also named Igo Montoya.

[01:23:37] Josiah: It’s confusing. Don’t pay attention. I literally was like, 

[01:23:40] Rebekah: like, wait a minute, that’s, and then Repa Cheap is very like puss and Boots like, which always makes me think mm-hmm. Of the Princess Bride. Wow. 

[01:23:47] Tim: Language. 

[01:23:48] Rebekah: Um, anyway, 

[01:23:48] Donna: yeah, 

[01:23:49] Rebekah: very weird. And 

[01:23:50] Tim: I did not even realize that it was an accent. Well, Warwick Davis is apparently a man of many faces In the same film we mentioned Warwick’s work in [01:24:00] the Harry Potter franchise portraying Professor Phil Flitwick and Grip Hook, the Goblin bank teller in Prince Cassian 2008 version.

[01:24:09] Tim: He was Nicka Brick and he also played the parts of Repa Cheap in the 1989 version. And Glen Feather in the 1990 film, the silver chair 

[01:24:20] Donna: Warwick’s, just all over it. 

[01:24:21] Josiah: Did you recognize Ben Barnes from another? Movie we did on the podcast. I wanted to talk about Ben Barnes more. Mm, no, I did not. No. He was in the beginning scenes as a prologue.

[01:24:34] Josiah: Uh, main character’s father. He 

[01:24:37] Tim: was, was it the, the, oh, the one about catching a star? Um, 

[01:24:42] Josiah: yes. Stardust. Stardust. Oh, he was, he was the opening of Stardust. I was more, I was excited ’cause he was the main character at the beginning and then it went forward in time. And I got, sorry. Yeah. He was 

[01:24:53] Donna: somebody else 

[01:24:53] Josiah: because I, I like Ben Barnes.

[01:24:55] Josiah: He was also in Westworld. Another person I really enjoy is Andrew Garfield. He [01:25:00] actually auditioned for the role of Prince Caspian. I think he Uh hmm. I think he would’ve done a good job. I don’t know about the Spanish accent or like the vaguely Mediterranean accent at least. Uh, but do you think he, he would’ve done an okay job?

[01:25:12] Josiah: Andrew Garfield, 

[01:25:13] Donna: I think in 2008. I, I wouldn’t have really known of him as much. 

[01:25:19] Tim: I’m always drawn to his, his mouth. There’s something about his mouth and the way he pronounces things. Dad. No, no. Moms right there. That draws my attention. Listen, crazy people. It draws my attention and is distracting. That’s what I’m, that’s what I’m saying.

[01:25:36] Tim: There’s something about Yeah, that’s true. Something about his mouth and the way he pronounces things. That becomes a distraction when I see it, what you’re talking about. But I’m glad you made, it’s just I do, 

[01:25:45] Donna: I do know what you’re, I do know what you’re talking about. There are actors mm-hmm. Where there’s certain things about them that draws your faith, your, their attention.

[01:25:52] Donna: Yeah. So, to close this out of trivia, on a more serious note, the lion in this film is [01:26:00] 15% larger than the one in the line, the witch in the wardrobe. They physically made him larger, which I’m really glad they did because you know, there is a line, she notes this saying, I’ve missed you so much. You’ve grown to, which Aslan responds every year you grow so shall I.

[01:26:16] Donna: In the novel, this dialogue goes back and forth like this. Aslan said, Lucy, you’re bigger. That is because you are older. Little one answered. He. Not because you are. I am not. But every year you grow, you will find me bigger. And this represents one of Lewis’s key themes of the book, that as Christians mature in, mature in their faith, that God becomes greater, stronger, and more precious.

[01:26:44] Donna: And I. Was so taken by that. I loved that line. 

[01:26:49] Tim: It’s a throwaway line almost in the film though. 

[01:26:52] Donna: But I noticed it and I think because I picked it up in the book and it was such a, a, a cool concept that [01:27:00] when she, I was so glad they left it in the film, even, even though they cut it back some. But I did think it was amazing.

[01:27:05] Tim: This is one of those things that I, that really concerns me, that if mm-hmm. If a group that, that is non or kind of anti or very neutral Christian, they may say, oh, these are, these are unimportant things. And I think it would be really sad to lose some of those, to lose those things. ’cause he was very overt in the fact that this, this was an allegory and it was, it was about Christianity.

[01:27:30] Tim: Um, so, 

[01:27:31] Donna: well, I, I mean, I don’t know how this would make a difference or not, and I don’t know if he’s in involved at all in a new, uh, take of this. But Gresham, I mean, Douglas Gresham is still living, and so I wonder if he will still have any, you know, any, uh, consulting role or influence. Who knows? Yeah.

[01:27:49] Donna: Still know. 

[01:27:50] Rebekah: Well as we transition into our little mini game. Portion before our verdicts. Uh, this is, oh gosh. So we release season seasons now. So I don’t even [01:28:00] remember what exact episode number this is season wise ’cause we’re at the end of season two here, I think. Um, but this is episode number 52. We did have a 0.5 episode.

[01:28:10] Rebekah: So we have done 53 episodes as of the this recording. However, three of those were not on book to film adaptations. And so Prince Caspian was the episode that we were hitting where this is actually the 50th time that we have recorded a podcast on an adaptation. And so what do you guys think, like, it’s been two years, it’s been 50 episodes on these with a couple of extra things.

[01:28:33] Rebekah: Um, what’s gone in on, in your lives outside of these episodes? How do you feel about the way the podcast has like morphed over time? What are your thoughts? 

[01:28:41] Tim: Well, um, I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Um, there have been times, uh, while we’ve been doing this that it’s difficult to get through some of the books.

[01:28:50] Tim: Um, some of the books I’m not the greatest fan of. Um, and you know, so sometimes it’s a little bit of a chore, uh, to listen to the book. [01:29:00] That’s the way I normally read books is to listen to them. Um. But I’ve really enjoyed it. I think we’ve, um, we’ve discovered some things about each other, which is saying something after this many years, um, together since we kind of all started together.

[01:29:16] Tim: Uh, but that’s really, that’s really been nice. And as far as what’s happened in our lives, ooh, wow. We’ve been, oh, nothing 

[01:29:25] Rebekah: much. We’ve 

[01:29:26] Tim: been through opportunity, the mountains. To announce that mother is pregnant? No, we’ve been through a hurricane in the mountains where hurricanes don’t come. Uh, that really, really drastically, uh, changed a lot of our life at, you know, for.

[01:29:45] Tim: Significant period of time. We have, uh, the size of our family has, has adjusted, um, during that, that time. And yeah, it’s been, it’s been interesting, uh, to, we’ve talked to a [01:30:00] lot of people that love podcasts and they. Book to movie adaptations and different things like that. And we’ve talked to other people that are like, oh really?

[01:30:09] Tim: You know, stuff to talk about. You do that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. You know, what is, what is that kind of thing. So it’s interesting. 

[01:30:14] Rebekah: I think my thoughts are a lot of stuff has changed in my life, which I won’t go into ’cause it’ll take way too long to explain. Um, I’m living two places. Like I lived in one house when we started another house last year and I’m in an apartment now that we weren’t in when we started.

[01:30:30] Rebekah: And so, uh, hopefully we’ll be here until we’re in our house. But, um, family stuff has gone on. That has been pretty like shattering in a lot of ways. But things at church have really been restorative for me. I’ve gotten to see God restore a lot of things in the last couple of years in my life as well. I don’t know, in terms of the podcast, I will say I really appreciate how this has made me such a critical thinker about what I read and watch.

[01:30:58] Rebekah: Like I’m able, and I think a lot of [01:31:00] that I would say is thanks to Josiah, ’cause he pushes us all to think like more critically. Yeah, definitely. And I think it’s been really helpful because honestly, it was on a podcast recording that the Lord reminded me of, like the word I got about running a publishing company and now it’s June is we’re recording this.

[01:31:16] Rebekah: I think this word comes out in July or August. And in January of next year, I’m launching a book publishing company like that happened partly because. I went ahead and just moved forward with this and didn’t keep thinking of it as a dream we would do one day. Um, but I like that it’s made me think more critically.

[01:31:33] Rebekah: It’s made me able to do like book reviews, um, as another fun like project that I’m working on. I now have my own account where I just do like books, Instagram book talk content, and it’s been really fun. Um, and yeah, I just think a lot more about things. So I’m like re-listening to Ready Player One right now, uh, and I’m gonna re-review it like for my account, and it’s just mm-hmm.

[01:31:54] Rebekah: There’s just little things that it makes me think about, um mm-hmm. Which I think is really fun. I also, [01:32:00] um, like more poignant note, like one time, not recently, but a while ago was talking to Josh and I think it was in the middle of some episodes that were like really hard to prepare for. ’cause either like the book was really long or it was a lot of content to watch, and it was just like, oh my gosh.

[01:32:14] Rebekah: Like, it felt kind of like a, a bother to like, get ready, not that I want, didn’t wanna spend the time with you guys, but just it felt like a big responsibility. And Josh, you know, he looked at me and he just said, he’s like, look, one day when the podcast has been over and your mom and dad are gone or whatever else has changed, like, think of all of the time that you just got to spend with them and now you get to listen back to all of that and remember Yeah.

[01:32:40] Rebekah: Like that with them. Not just in your memory, but like, you can hear them and like kind of feels like you get to talk to them again one day. So yeah, I hadn’t really thought of that, but I thought that was, uh, pretty cool too. And we’re not stopping or anything. This isn’t like a good goodbye episode. I just 

[01:32:53] Donna: mm-hmm.

[01:32:54] Donna: Well, uh, so in two years I, I look at things as you being very [01:33:00] purposeful. I think that as this is, as a child of God, I think things that happen in my life happen intentionally and, and on a, on a timeline. I could do things to mess up the timeline if I make foolish mistakes or whatever. But I think there’s a general timeline in, in this, all this.

[01:33:17] Donna: And so I’ve, I’ve had to unpack a lot of emotional baggage that didn’t really consume my life or make I wasn’t bitter or, or, uh, what’s a word? Bitter or, or angry about things that maybe happened in my past or my childhood. But since my mother passed away in 2021, I’ve kind of been on this journey of, of being the oldest adult in my immediate family that I, that I grew up in.

[01:33:46] Donna: Everybody else is gone. And so I’m, I’ve kind of taken that as, uh, an opportunity to reflect and so. I think it’s very timely that we did this because these opportunities to be with you all [01:34:00] and spend time with you all have been even more precious. Because if I was having a particular, particularly difficult week, I knew either this weekend or the next weekend I’d be talking to you all and I would see you and we could laugh together and we could.

[01:34:15] Donna: And so, um, it’s been a very cathartic experience. Um, also, I, I’ve lost, uh, like 95 pounds in, uh, Martin, two in that two years. And I can’t wait to take a new picture for our website. And even though I, I’m still not done, I still have some ways to go my, my life. It has completely transformed my life because.

[01:34:39] Donna: I didn’t realize it until probably six or seven months ago, but before I started losing weight, I just didn’t do a whole lot. I drugged to my job 40 hours a week and I would just come home and be exhausted. And now I have more energy and, and I’m active and able to do, to be more involved in life and not just [01:35:00] existing through time.

[01:35:01] Donna: And so, um, yeah, and I’m, I love the podcast. I re-listened to it. I just like to something, sometimes I just like to re-listen to it, to hear our banter or just because I wanna do it. And kind of what Rebecca was saying, it’s nice to, to hear, to have that, that recording, that memory in, in record that I can go back to and pull some fun times and hopefully other people have been not just entertained.

[01:35:26] Donna: And hopefully they did laugh with us, but also hopefully we could encourage them and inspire people to, to do things, step out and do fun things and, and, uh. And enjoy fun things that they can enjoy. So 

[01:35:38] Josiah: yeah, I mean, my life hasn’t changed at all and uh, I, everything that you learned, I actually already knew.

[01:35:45] Josiah: So, yeah. So it’s all good for you. That was short. Yeah. 

[01:35:49] Donna: We’ve already said you inspired us to be critical thinkers, so see you, you know, you’ve done your job 

[01:35:56] Josiah: well. Uh, you know, I run Adenai Theater in East [01:36:00] Nashville, and since we’ve done, before we did the podcast, we had had gone through like three smaller productions.

[01:36:07] Josiah: And I think since the podcast began, we’ve done another six and we have more on the horizon, uh, as the program grows. I’ve started music directing and, and conducting orchestras for theater. And, uh, near the beginning of when the podcast started, I had a. Musical that I wrote come out public domain. And, um, I’ve been able to develop new friendships and friendships that already existed.

[01:36:35] Josiah: I’ve been able to deepen. But like I, I tell people about the podcast and I say, what a great opportunity that, like about every two weeks I get to spend a few hours with my family no matter where we are. And that’s always a comfort ’cause I love you guys and you love me and it’s good to talk about things.

[01:36:55] Josiah: I’ve never fully understood the benefit of a book club, and now I’m [01:37:00] thinking, wow, I do like a book club that, where we’re all kinda working towards a similar achievable goal and then we can all talk about it. I love talking about things and I love having little achievable goals that we can all meet. So, um, and part it’s reading a book yes, but also watching a movie.

[01:37:18] Josiah: So it’s, it’s been a lot of fun and I’m excited to do another 50 adaptation reviews with my family, whom I love. And when we make it to episode 227, which is also two twenty seven is my birthday, 227. 

[01:37:35] Donna: Yay. 

[01:37:35] Josiah: Uh, I get to choose which, which, uh, controversial adaptation we get to do. 

[01:37:43] Rebekah: I love it. Well thank you guys for sharing.

[01:37:46] Rebekah: So let’s move on to our final verdicts. And remember we’re doing ratings for the book and film out of 10. And then tell us what you thought was the book better than the movie in this case? I don’t mind going first, unless I know you have a very strong [01:38:00] opinion. Mine is not as strong. So do you care if I go first?

[01:38:03] Rebekah: Go ahead. Mm-hmm. So I would rate the book for this one a little lower, I think, than I did the last one. This is probably like a, I don’t know, six and a half, seven out of 10 for me. Let’s say seven. Uh, to be nice probably. It was nice, but I think mom made a good point. I’ll let her make it during her verdict, but.

[01:38:20] Rebekah: It was a little bit more difficult to get into this time. There’s something about the wardrobe and the lamppost and humus and the winter. It’s just perfect. Yeah. Like it’s perfect in a way that would be very difficult to recreate. And yeah, I, I had a little bit more time connecting to the story and the characters.

[01:38:41] Rebekah: I thought it was interesting, um, once the children had walked around a little bit to then get to, um, hear Caspian’s story, I thought it was well done. And I thought the characters were good and the story was good, but I wasn’t, like, Mraz didn’t feel like as much of a threat as the white witch did too. So I felt like the stakes [01:39:00] maybe were different, although the stakes and obviously the magic being lost and stuff are a little different.

[01:39:04] Rebekah: I don’t know the, there were stakes, but it just was not the same. And so I did not love it quite as much as the first the movie for me. Oh my goodness. It was so hard to focus on. I really, really kept like just getting distracted by anything. And normally, like with the first film, I didn’t wanna pick up my phone and check a notification.

[01:39:24] Rebekah: Like with this one, it was really hard for me to just disconnect and pay attention. And so I would probably give it like a five and a half out of 10 for the film. I thought the book was better. Um, I did recently, and it’s still true, like reading these books feels like being home somehow. Um, but I, yeah, this one was not quite as like big of a success for me in terms of story and the adaptation was just Okay.

[01:39:47] Rebekah: Um. 

[01:39:48] Donna: I will say mine’s similar to the experience you had. I, I stayed with the movie. Um, some of the additions, the, the, uh, the change in Peter bothered [01:40:00] me because I did see Peter from the first film book and film as a strong young man, a strong first child, young man who’s, you know, in the first movie, he’s kind of supposed to take on this role of dad to these children who have been even taken away from their mother for a period of time.

[01:40:21] Donna: And, and so to come in and see him a little more, that he’d pick a fight with a kid at school. And I can understand they were frustrated, but so his care that, that was a little bothering for me. Um, the book, uh, I did enjoy the book. I did. It was a little odd that Trump can told the whole story. It was a little odd for me, but I didn’t, I didn’t mind it, but it just.

[01:40:45] Donna: I, I was, I fell into the, oh, he’s just telling a story, not these things are really happening, and so I can get involved in them really happening. Oh my goodness. Right. And so that, that was okay, I’m gonna s I’ll give the book, uh, I’ll [01:41:00] say maybe a, a, maybe a five out of 10, maybe a, I could maybe get to a six, possibly.

[01:41:06] Donna: If I read it again, it might just strike me. Um, the movie, I’ll go up to maybe a seven, 7.2. The only reason I don’t, I wouldn’t go higher. It is that, that the part with Peter bother me. But I will say that the message I did still get the mess, the strong message of faith. I was so inspired by Lucy’s faith about not just that she had faith, but she was still learning too.

[01:41:34] Donna: So it wasn’t, oh, I met Lan, so I’ve arrived. Because we never, we don’t arrive. We grow and we mature. And so I loved that. I loved the scene, uh, where she talks to Lyn and, you know, he, she says, oh, you’re larger. But I also, uh, a sad scene, but I thought it was done well is when Peter and. Susan, were walking along at the castle with Aslan now we don’t [01:42:00] hear them talking, but we find out later.

[01:42:02] Donna: He’s telling them they won’t return to Narnia. And it was ver, it was well done. It captured my emotions, it brought, it brought me to tears because we do change, we do move in life. Life changes. And sometimes it changes because of our choices, and sometimes it changes because of others’ choices. But the only person that we can have any effect over what they do is us.

[01:42:26] Donna: And that’s how I tried to raise you. You make choices to decide where your life goes when people hurt you. It hurts and offense is real and all those things, but it’s your decision to let that actually stop you in life or that you’ll learn to walk on. And you’ll learn to grow through that and deal with that.

[01:42:44] Donna: And so that part was very impor important to me. So that’s, that’s where I am. I, I’ll say the book, I’ll, I’ll say the movie over the book in general. Um, still not as strong as Line Witch in the wardrobe for a lot of the things Rebecca said. But, [01:43:00] um, I’m glad we did it. I’m, I’m really thankful to, to have the opportunity, uh, to, to cover it again and go live in this world a little bit.

[01:43:07] Josiah: Well, I was. Offended at this book. It ended and I thought, what This is the follow up to Lion Witch in the wardrobe. One of the most beautiful secular stories and, uh, top five religious beautiful mm-hmm. Stories in existence so magical in so many different ways. Prince Cassian, I applaud. CS Lewis, I guess, for doing something different.

[01:43:40] Josiah: Personally, I don’t think I agree with his premise that Aslan, I feel like is kind of stating the thesis when in the book. I think it’s in the book, but it’s definitely in the film. When he says, uh, things don’t, they never happen the same way twice. I disagree. Um, and I think I fundamentally think CS Lewis is [01:44:00] wrong on a philosophical level.

[01:44:01] Josiah: Is 

[01:44:01] Donna: that, as in history, repeats itself? Is that what you’re thinking? 

[01:44:05] Josiah: History repeats itself. Mm-hmm. You know, without God. It, it’s almost impossible for people to change. For instance, you know, if we’re talking about religious mm-hmm. Side of things on a secular side of things. Yeah. History repeats itself. As long as you, if you don’t know your history, you’re doomed to repeat it.

[01:44:21] Josiah: Mm-hmm. And there’s a reason for that. Things happen the same way twice all the time. Uh, so I don’t really understand what CS Lewis was trying to say with that. Uh, or what, what, what Aslan as a character was trying to say with that. Either one. Maybe he 

[01:44:33] Tim: was speaking to his publisher when he said that con, when he came up with that, his publisher said, I don’t want the same story.

[01:44:39] Tim: It’s gotta be different. 

[01:44:41] Josiah: His publisher probably said, I want the same story. CS Lewis says, nothing happens the same way twice. So I applaud him for trying something different that wasn’t just a rehash of Lion Witch in the wardrobe. I appreciate some of the religious allegory happening here, but I don’t think that it’s cohesive.

[01:44:59] Josiah: I, I [01:45:00] don’t fully get, because it’s like, oh, the true religion is being restored after a corruption. Is that, is that what’s happening? I, I don’t, is that how it happens in the real world? So I don’t fully understand the full allegory he was going for, or at least I disagree with the execution of expressing that allegory.

[01:45:19] Josiah: I think the book is. And I think that this is a choice from CS Lewis, not a limitation of the novel or the time period. I think that CS Lewis did not want to write action. He wanted to have characters talk about CS Lewis’s genius world building and his theological. Uh, debates that he had with JR Art Tolkien.

[01:45:45] Josiah: And it was a, sorry, excuse for a story. In my opinion, I can’t believe how unimportant the dependencies are. You know what I was thinking in this book, it was in the beginning. And, and them exploring Care Parel was kind of fun. [01:46:00] I was like, oh, this is, this is whimsical. I can see how this story might work with them coming back, but like it being a completely, or it being so far in the future, I can see how it might work.

[01:46:10] Josiah: But after like the first couple chapters and you realize, oh, CS Lewis wanted to write a book about Prince Caspian, and in order for his publisher to publish it, he needed to put the pv, see children in. And I started think, oh gosh, I’ve always had a problem with why would you take away Peter and Susan?

[01:46:28] Josiah: Like, I get the symbolism, but people, readers like reading about the same characters for a reason. Why would you take away? And then, and then after Prince Casby and I was thinking, oh yeah, they don’t really matter. Why would you Yeah. Bring in tis take away. Edmund and Lucy in silver chair, who cares? Just bringing some random one of Eustis classmates.

[01:46:50] Josiah: It doesn’t, they’re, they’re not the main characters, they’re just the witnesses. They’re the Toby McGuire characters in great Gadsby, uh, to the, to the Gadsby [01:47:00] daisy characters that are Prince Caspian, I guess. But, uh, yeah, I was, I was pretty offended at this book and I thought that the movie, though it had its flaws, was almost exclusively better in every way.

[01:47:14] Josiah: Um, Peter was, Peter and Susan were more annoying, but like in the book, they were just nothing. So like, them being something, at least it gives me something to chew on. It’s like, why, why were they this or that in the book? They could have been written out and nothing would’ve changed. Uh, Edmund Ken Knight, prince Cassian, who cares if it’s specifically Peter.

[01:47:35] Josiah: He was no different than anything. The book was such a disappointment to me. I guess I’ll grade it like a three and a half to four and a half. Let’s just average hour around four-ish. I give it some credit for being a part of the Narnia series. It gets credit for existing, it gets credit for existing. I like the Mond line about, uh, supporting Lucy when she sees Aslan.

[01:47:59] Josiah: Uh, there’s [01:48:00] that and, uh, I found something. I found some, I really liked that. I, I kind of, I was trying to grab onto what made me cry when I was reading and watching Lion Witch in the Wardrobe, and that was the closest I came in the book, in the movie Edmund had all sorts of cool stuff. He supports Lucy in the film in the same way.

[01:48:19] Josiah: Yeah. But he has, he he’s funny. He’s the funny one now. He has the torch, the flashlight recurring bit, and the film needed the humor. Uh, he’s not really in conflict with anyone. Like occasionally he has a line about this or that. Like after he kills the White Witch, which brings his first book film plot full circle and is Cool in its own right, he says something to Peter about, oh yeah, I bet you had it all figured out.

[01:48:46] Josiah: I shouldn’t have, I shouldn’t have intervened. I know, I know. And it’s like a little smart Eck, but Edmond is right and Peter was wrong. So it’s, it, it’s not really a conflict, I would say. Uh, you know, and he’s so cool when he falls backwards off [01:49:00] the tower onto the Griffin, he’s just so cool. And he was my favorite character in the first Story book and film, so I’m glad that the filmmakers also agreed that Edmond is the coolest and gave him so much to do.

[01:49:13] Josiah: So. Whereas the book is maybe a four, uh, I think I gave the first movie in eight or nine. I’ll, I’ll give this one a seven or eight, you know, seven and a half. It’s a solid movie. I think it’s, um, I applaud it for really not trying to rehash like the Hobbit trilogy. I will criticize all day long for trying to take source material and make it more like Lord of the Rings.

[01:49:36] Josiah: Yeah. I don’t think that Prince Caspian was trying to be more like Lion Witch in the wardrobe than the source material. Mm-hmm. So I give it a lot of credit for that. So even though if it doesn’t reach the same heights as the first movie, uh, I have to give it a lot of credit for not, for not being the first movie.

[01:49:52] Josiah: Mm-hmm. And trying its own thing, and largely doing a pretty good job. Um, the film kept my interest. I liked the [01:50:00] battles I could have done without the night raid, but, um, I liked the action. I liked that it felt more mature. I liked Edmond. I liked Lucy and, uh, yeah, I like Ben Barnes. Prince Cassian’s pretty cool, but 

[01:50:13] Tim: I don’t know what else to say.

[01:50:15] Tim: Well, my turn, um, I love the Chronicles of Narnia. I have thought from the beginning when I first read the Chronicles, I had already read the Lord of the Rings, and I feel like the Lord of the Rings is a, is a higher class of art than the Chronicles of Narnia. However, I think the Chronicles of Narnia have, have a spiritual aspect that the Lord of the Rings doesn’t have.

[01:50:42] Tim: That being said, this is probably my least favorite of the books Wow. In the Chronicles. Wow. My 

[01:50:50] Rebekah: least favorite is the horse, a horse and his boy, or the horse and his boy or whichever, whatever. Just wanna share my, well, yeah, 

[01:50:56] Tim: there I’d probably level, level these two [01:51:00] basically together. There. I, I agree with, with Josiah, there’s not a lot of reason for the dependencies to be there.

[01:51:08] Tim: Um, they, you know, in the first one, they are the catalyst for. For the things that happen. Yeah. In this one they’re also there and it, they’re 

[01:51:20] Rebekah: kind of like, sorry, when you say that, what I thought was they’re kind of just like, good with swords, but also know who aslan. Like that feels like the extent of it.

[01:51:31] Tim: Yeah. They’re not, it’s not, it’s not important now. Um, when, you know, when I get to the end and I, I’ve already started, uh, started listening to the final battle in the book, the Final Battle. It really makes a difference that you’ve gotten to know these characters. But I think the second book is probably, um, unimportant to that.

[01:51:52] Tim: Mm-hmm. I like the horse and his boy because it gives you some background of what happened while the four of them were the kings and queens [01:52:00] of Narnia. Um mm-hmm. And I, and I like that this, it introduces a group of people that are then wiped from the world. So I can see, you know, there this kind of like a useless kind of thing for a lot of that, at the 

[01:52:15] Rebekah: end of it, what was actually different.

[01:52:17] Rebekah: Yeah. What was actually different. But not ti 

[01:52:19] Tim: um, just not ti not use to just Useless. Useless. 

[01:52:23] Rebekah: It was also useless. 

[01:52:24] Tim: Yeah. So I, so it is one, it is probably the, the least favorite. You know, for me of, of the books. So I would probably give the book, uh, I’ve been thinking a 7.5 is reasonable for, for my perspective, and I would probably give the movie an eight.

[01:52:43] Tim: The movie introduced some things that I thought were unnecessary. Uh, yeah, the night battle and a couple of other things. But I think basically the movie was an enjoyable movie, and I appreciate the fact that Adamson and Disney made a movie that was [01:53:00] faithful to the source material. Despite the fact that the source material, this is, this is kind of like a sequel used to be thought of.

[01:53:08] Tim: Mm-hmm. Um, before Marvel came out and did all of, all of the things they’ve done in the Marvel Universe, cinematic universe, and all, um, sequels were, Hey, you’ve got one great thing. Let’s make a sequel. And it’ll be kind of like it, not quite as good, but it’s in the last decade or two that we’ve had 4, 5, 6, 7, 10 of, of a series of movies and found that they could get better.

[01:53:39] Tim: I, I know that, you know, it, it seems kind of odd, but the Fast and Furious, some of them are much more enjoyable later in the series than the first, first ones or whatever. Um, so this is kind of like what you would expect to sequel to be mm-hmm. From, from earlier times. A sequel is not quite as good as the [01:54:00] first one, but it’s, but it’s nice and it’s the same world and, and all of that kind of stuff.

[01:54:04] Tim: Mm-hmm. So I would give it an eight, but I, I really enjoy it. I am sorry that we’re not going to be able to cover, um. To cover the other books past the, the Prince Caspian in the, or the Voyage of the Dawn shredder. Um, 

[01:54:21] Donna: no, Rebecca, it’s not, it’s not Prince Cassian. The Voyage of the Dawn tr, right? Yeah. Right.

[01:54:24] Donna: Well, they’re two different things. Yeah. 

[01:54:27] Tim: But the Voyage of the Dawn shredder is actually one of my favorite because I love the fact, you know, the things that they go through, so. The book. I may go ahead and just keep reading though. 

[01:54:38] Rebekah: I may go ahead and just keep reading. I, I guess I could even go back and listen to the horse and his boy, they’re not that long.

[01:54:44] Rebekah: I mean, finishing them short. Yeah, yeah, finishing them would be about the same amount of time as me listening to a single other book. So, yeah, I don’t know. Maybe it’d be fun to, to listen to all of them. And, hey, that’s a great segue into the fact that we’re live on Patreon and Oh, on Patreon. If, uh, [01:55:00] your paid subscribers are the ones I’m asking this question to, if you would be interested in a bonus episode of us talking about our thoughts of the rest of the Narnia books outside of those with movie adaptations.

[01:55:12] Rebekah: Sounds like a pretty fun episode. I’m just saying you can also, yeah, let us know. Yeah, you can also subscribe for free. Uh, that will get you Patreon slash email updates of when we release new episodes or when things change or announcements, um, in general. Also, if you had fun listening to this episode with us, please leave a five star rating or review.

[01:55:30] Rebekah: Um, audible and Apple lets you write reviews. Uh, you can also write reviews on tons of extra platforms. Spotify and many others have a really quick five star, um, option that you can give. Um, those are super, super helpful. Uh, you can also and tell a 

[01:55:43] Tim: friend. 

[01:55:43] Rebekah: Yay. Yeah. Uh, you can also find us on X Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook at book is Better Pod.

[01:55:50] Rebekah: We’re getting a little more active on the Bookstagram book talk scene, so would love to see your thoughts on what we’re sharing there. And if you wanna just talk to us. Let us know what [01:56:00] you think. Ask about new episodes you’d like us to do. You can also join our free Discord server. You do not have to be a member of our Patreon to do it.

[01:56:07] Rebekah: And the link is in the episode description. And, uh, until then, every year you grow so shall I. So that’s why we’re all losing weight ’cause everybody’s doing it at the same time. It works in reverse too. Okay, thanks. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye bye.[01:57:00]